Possible one on one topic... poverty

[DragonStryk72]

Most people never rise out of poverty, are psychological/environmental reasons mostly to blame, or are they 'lazy'?

I think it could be a solid debate, but I don't think it could be done in an either/or capacity as a debate. Where the fault ultimately lies, but it's clear that it's basically a little from column A and a little from Column B.

[Trigg]

Actually the only "welfare" that's going to bankrupt the country is Medicare and Social Security and they're not easy targets.

I and everyone who has worked pay into their social security, it is not a handout and certainly isn't welfare.

I for one would be happy to NOT pay into it and be able to invest as I see fit.

[Trigg]

So how do we 'undo' this insane amount of 'assistance'? You know the first cries are going to be 'why do you hate black people!', 'you want the elderly to die!', 'you don't care about the poor' and other numerous lines that have been used repeatedly in the past.

And if the majority, or almost majority, of Americans are getting this 'assistance' they certainly are going to keep voting for those that do not try to reduce or remove it.

Is it a loosing battle at this point that must simply play out?

Is it a loosing battle, for now I believe it is. Until we go hopelessly bankrupt like Greece.

[DragonStryk72]

So how do we 'undo' this insane amount of 'assistance'? You know the first cries are going to be 'why do you hate black people!', 'you want the elderly to die!', 'you don't care about the poor' and other numerous lines that have been used repeatedly in the past.

And if the majority, or almost majority, of Americans are getting this 'assistance' they certainly are going to keep voting for those that do not try to reduce or remove it.

Is it a loosing battle at this point that must simply play out?

Well, for one, you have to stop the punishment of those who are trying to get off assistance. I know this sounds stupid, but so many times when I was living in poverty, it felt like every time I tried to move forward, there was the government, setting the rules against me.

"Oh? So you're working Labor Ready, huh? Well, you have to attend this daily class on how to get work during that time instead, or lose your benefits."

"Oh? You picked up a quick part-time job that makes less than your benefits before taxes get taken out of it? Well, screw you, the benefits are gone now."

Meanwhile, the people who are obviously abusing and working the system keep gaining from it. I watched guys on food stamps go out, buy hundreds of dollars on party foods, and then throw massive parties that they charge $10-$20/head cover charge, which, since it's cash, doesn't get reported, so basically, they get a free personal catering business, and nothing gets done for the fact that they're clearly playing the system. Or for unemployment, I've watched people purposely get themselves fired on their 91st day of employment, just so they can recharge their unemployment benefits to stretch things out for another few years.

The whole system feels rigged against you if you have any decent desire to provide for yourself, and at the same time to promote the worst peoples' lifestyles.

[glockmail]

Does the reality that if you work, the 'benefits' of that labor are often less than the 'free stuff' that mama government gives? There were many stories not long ago how most on government assistance are making a better living than the median of working Americans. When the step off of government assistance is down, then the amount of assistance is set far too high.

Correct. Which is why I advocate a safety net, low and uncomfortable, not a hammock.

[fj1200]

I and everyone who has worked pay into their social security, it is not a handout and certainly isn't welfare.

I for one would be happy to NOT pay into it and be able to invest as I see fit.

Just because the middle and upper classes are also receiving a stipend every month doesn't mean it isn't welfare. I certainly agree that it's a crap system but let's acknowledge it for what it is and when those particular entitlement programs are on the verge of crushing our Federal budget we can't resist changes just because we need to ensure we "get ours."

[Nukeman]

Just because the middle and upper classes are also receiving a stipend every month doesn't mean it isn't welfare. I certainly agree that it's a crap system but let's acknowledge it for what it is and when those particular entitlement programs are on the verge of crushing our Federal budget we can't resist changes just because we need to ensure we "get ours."

Fine I stop paying today and no longer give my money to the govt for them to pillage every time they need pork in a bill. It is NOT going broke from payments it is going broke because they STEAL the money to pay for stupid programs... Now as far as medicare.. I seem to note a BIG chunk of change coming out of my check every 2 weeks to pay for that as well. I DON'T EVEN RECEIVE MEDICARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So tell me again how I am FORCED to pay into something that I will probably NEVER get and that is some how an entitlement for me.. Sounds more like an a@@ pounding!!

The "stipend" the middle class and upper class receive is money that they "invested" into the govt during their entire working career. The only ones that get it as a entitlement are those that have NEVER put a dime in, in the first place. Forced investment in the govt is NOT an entitlement it is THEFT!!!!!!!!!

[fj1200]

Fine I stop paying today and no longer give my money to the govt for them to pillage every time they need pork in a bill. It is NOT going broke from payments it is going broke because they STEAL the money to pay for stupid programs... Now as far as medicare.. I seem to note a BIG chunk of change coming out of my check every 2 weeks to pay for that as well. I DON'T EVEN RECEIVE MEDICARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So tell me again how I am FORCED to pay into something that I will probably NEVER get and that is some how an entitlement for me.. Sounds more like an a@@ pounding!!

The "stipend" the middle class and upper class receive is money that they "invested" into the govt during their entire working career. The only ones that get it as a entitlement are those that have NEVER put a dime in, in the first place. Forced investment in the govt is NOT an entitlement it is THEFT!!!!!!!!!

First, I'm not actually going to really disagree that Medicare and SS are clusters but second, I'm sure I don't need to go over that the young pay for the old via payroll deductions and very few of us actually are currently receiving the benefits for which we and our families are paying. The reality is the entitlement is coming later once we retire and hit the designated age. Unfortunately we are all benefiting from them "stealing" deductions to pay for other things; do I agree with any of it? Of course not but reality of it is where we are headed.

Of course this all goes to my point of whether we will accept necessary changes or if we will resist on the basis of entitlements.

[DragonStryk72]

First, I'm not actually going to really disagree that Medicare and SS are clusters but second, I'm sure I don't need to go over that the young pay for the old via payroll deductions and very few of us actually are currently receiving the benefits for which we and our families are paying. The reality is the entitlement is coming later once we retire and hit the designated age. Unfortunately we are all benefiting from them "stealing" deductions to pay for other things; do I agree with any of it? Of course not but reality of it is where we are headed.

Of course this all goes to my point of whether we will accept necessary changes or if we will resist on the basis of entitlements.

The changes almost have to be better than the current rigged system. I wouldn't even if, in order to get assistance, I had to work for the government doing menial tasks, like filling potholes, or cleaning up roadkill and such.

I think Habitat for Humanity probably has the best setup. Sure, we'll give you a free house for you and your family, just help our volunteers build the thing, and it's all good. This gives personal investiture in house, as opposed to standard government assisted housing that's basically just handed off. If you do nothing to earn it, it has no value to you.

[Nukeman]

First, I'm not actually going to really disagree that Medicare and SS are clusters but second, I'm sure I don't need to go over that the young pay for the old via payroll deductions and very few of us actually are currently receiving the benefits for which we and our families are paying. The reality is the entitlement is coming later once we retire and hit the designated age. Unfortunately we are all benefiting from them "stealing" deductions to pay for other things; do I agree with any of it? Of course not but reality of it is where we are headed.

Of course this all goes to my point of whether we will accept necessary changes or if we will resist on the basis of entitlements.

When I received my last SS information packet that told me how much I will "earn" every month it doesn't even cover what I payed in let alone any type of investment.

For example a person throughout their career starts out at 25K fresh out of college than 20 years later are making 100k through the 20 years they are working so far they have payed in about 100k into their retirement SS account. Now that person has another 25 years to work at the higher rate they will have an additional 170k removed from their income. That is 270k taken with NO interest payed. Now this same person will receive $2000.00 per month from the time they retire at 68 until they die which with current standards is within 10 years. Do the math that's $24,000 per year (before taxes go figure) times 10 years that is $240,000.00 notice we are still down $30,000.00 of what they payed in.. So tell me again how this is an entitlement??????? Hell you lose money with this scenario.. If I was allowed to invest that exact same amount over the 45 years of working I could turn that into 2-4 million with conservative investing....

[fj1200]

When I received my last SS information packet that told me how much I will "earn" every month it doesn't even cover what I payed in let alone any type of investment.

For example a person throughout their career starts out at 25K fresh out of college than 20 years later are making 100k through the 20 years they are working so far they have payed in about 100k into their retirement SS account. Now that person has another 25 years to work at the higher rate they will have an additional 170k removed from their income. That is 270k taken with NO interest payed. Now this same person will receive $2000.00 per month from the time they retire at 68 until they die which with current standards is within 10 years. Do the math that's $24,000 per year (before taxes go figure) times 10 years that is $240,000.00 notice we are still down $30,000.00 of what they payed in.. So tell me again how this is an entitlement??????? Hell you lose money with this scenario.. If I was allowed to invest that exact same amount over the 45 years of working I could turn that into 2-4 million with conservative investing....

It's an entitlement because you're entitled to it once you hit the sainted age of wisdom and grace as determined by current Federal legislation. And again, I don't disagree with what you've posted about the reality of SS and Medicare, Medicare is even the bigger budget buster looking forward. But the reality of future Federal budgets is extremely bleak, even if revenues get back to historic levels, and the primary reason is SS and Medicare. The fan will be covered in excrement in a few years and we should be thinking now about how to fix it with a long-term view though I don't expect anything is going to happen with the current make up in DC.

And SS already has "welfare" implications, if you make say twice as much, for example, as someone else you don't receive twice as much in benefits; there is a curve built into it.

[Arbo]

When I received my last SS information packet that told me how much I will "earn" every month it doesn't even cover what I payed in let alone any type of investment.

For example a person throughout their career starts out at 25K fresh out of college than 20 years later are making 100k through the 20 years they are working so far they have payed in about 100k into their retirement SS account. Now that person has another 25 years to work at the higher rate they will have an additional 170k removed from their income. That is 270k taken with NO interest payed. Now this same person will receive $2000.00 per month from the time they retire at 68 until they die which with current standards is within 10 years. Do the math that's $24,000 per year (before taxes go figure) times 10 years that is $240,000.00 notice we are still down $30,000.00 of what they payed in.. So tell me again how this is an entitlement??????? Hell you lose money with this scenario.. If I was allowed to invest that exact same amount over the 45 years of working I could turn that into 2-4 million with conservative investing....

Yeah, it's a scam, pure and simple. I really wish there was a 'opt out' for it, as the money they steal from me (and it is theft as by the time I hit the age to collect it, it will no longer be there) could be invested so much better by myself.

[Jeff]

Just because the middle and upper classes are also receiving a stipend every month doesn't mean it isn't welfare. I certainly agree that it's a crap system but let's acknowledge it for what it is and when those particular entitlement programs are on the verge of crushing our Federal budget we can't resist changes just because we need to ensure we "get ours."

I can assure you by no means is SS any kind of welfare, yes I do receive it , as some of you who have known me for a while know at one point I don't think you could of found anyone that worked the hours I did, there where weeks where I slept 2 or 3 hours all week trying to make the best living for my family that I could unfortunately working like that takes a major toll on ones body, so now yes I am in major pain most days ( yup I still do things that one would consider normal but I pay a price for it through the pain I am in ) So when I see someone posting how SS is a kind of Welfare it makes me want to respond, see I never collected anything from our government ( not true back when I was 19 I collected unemployment for two months ) but a few years back my dispatcher wouldn't allow me to return to work even though I had a Doctors note allowing me to do so , seems what I was working with wasn't normal and the Dispatcher ( a guy that liked me even though he ruined my career ) said no one should work in that shape, well of course I couldn't fix what was wrong ( and in my eyes I could still do that same job today) but the Gov. wont give me a ICC physical and now due to that they want to take my CDL lisc. yes my Birthday is coming up and unless I can get a physical by then I will no longer have a CDL Lisc. so what should I do , commit suicide so no one says I am collecting welfare or let my family starve ? And yea I hear the smart asses now well I can just get a different job, hmmm making a 1/4 of what I did or how about my medical conditions dont allow me to stand for long periods or even sit for that matter and physical work is completely out of the question so yes I collect SS ,am I proud of it Hell NO I am embarrassed to admit it( but I also dont lie ) and yes I paid into SS for 30 years and even harped on how many people have no business collecting it ( and those are the ones we need to get off of it ) but at this point in my life I have no choice so do I get touchy when I see people saying it is a form of welfare yes I do as i said those that knew me a few years back will tell you I worked more hours than most and was very proud when people would Gasp and ask me how in the hell could I do it , so let this be a warning for ya younger folks we don't know what the future holds for us and I am a perfect example of it , just a few years ago I to would of considered SS a form of welfare

[Larrymc]

I can assure you by no means is SS any kind of welfare, yes I do receive it , as some of you who have known me for a while know at one point I don't think you could of found anyone that worked the hours I did, there where weeks where I slept 2 or 3 hours all week trying to make the best living for my family that I could unfortunately working like that takes a major toll on ones body, so now yes I am in major pain most days ( yup I still do things that one would consider normal but I pay a price for it through the pain I am in ) So when I see someone posting how SS is a kind of Welfare it makes me want to respond, see I never collected anything from our government ( not true back when I was 19 I collected unemployment for two months ) but a few years back my dispatcher wouldn't allow me to return to work even though I had a Doctors note allowing me to do so , seems what I was working with wasn't normal and the Dispatcher ( a guy that liked me even though he ruined my career ) said no one should work in that shape, well of course I couldn't fix what was wrong ( and in my eyes I could still do that same job today) but the Gov. wont give me a ICC physical and now due to that they want to take my CDL lisc. yes my Birthday is coming up and unless I can get a physical by then I will no longer have a CDL Lisc. so what should I do , commit suicide so no one says I am collecting welfare or let my family starve ? And yea I hear the smart asses now well I can just get a different job, hmmm making a 1/4 of what I did or how about my medical conditions dont allow me to stand for long periods or even sit for that matter and physical work is completely out of the question so yes I collect SS ,am I proud of it Hell NO I am embarrassed to admit it( but I also dont lie ) and yes I paid into SS for 30 years and even harped on how many people have no business collecting it ( and those are the ones we need to get off of it ) but at this point in my life I have no choice so do I get touchy when I see people saying it is a form of welfare yes I do as i said those that knew me a few years back will tell you I worked more hours than most and was very proud when people would Gasp and ask me how in the hell could I do it , so let this be a warning for ya younger folks we don't know what the future holds for us and I am a perfect example of it , just a few years ago I to would of considered SS a form of welfare

Wow we have similar story's, i completely identify with your story. i change careers when i got sick and did that as long as i could.

[fj1200]

I can assure you by no means is SS any kind of welfare...

I disagree but I do not consider disability to be the same thing. Having said that it is a program that provides monthly income to (some) senior citizens who wouldn't normally need it, especially if it weren't there to begin with and people would have had more incentive to do their own planning. Everybody seems to be overlooking my major point because practically everyone over the age of ~62 is receiving "welfare" so it's not like there is a particular stigma to it; It's not necessarily anything wrong but it is what it is IMO. My point is that those two programs are what are going to be devastating to Federal budgets in the out years and what will be our response to that eventuality; Will we say we need to get what was promised (and can no longer afford) or are we going to accept necessary changes. Now I have no problem with a safety net but that is the extent of what government should provide (perfect world).