Will This New Toyota Hydrogen Car Change the World?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...the-world.aspx

By John Rosevear | More Articles
November 10, 2013 | Toyota (NYSE: TM ) this week released the first photos of its latest concept car, called the Toyota FCV Concept. The Toyota FCV Concept, which will be shown later this month at the Tokyo Motor Show, is an electric car.

It's a "concept car", meaning that it's just for show, but you'll be able to buy something very similar in a couple of years. Toyota says that it will begin selling a car like the FCV-R in 2015 or thereabouts.

But the FCV Concept isn't an ordinary electric car. It doesn't have a battery pack. Instead, it has a system that makes its own electricity, right on board — from hydrogen.

Electric cars, without the batteries
That system is called a fuel cell, and Toyota is just one of several automakers that have made heavy bets on fuel cells — and hydrogen — as a way to power the automobiles of the future.

Fuel cells convert the energy in hydrogen to electricity by oxidizing it. That means the hydrogen atoms are combined with oxygen atoms. The result is electricity — along with water, or water vapor. That water vapor is the only "exhaust" emitted by a fuel-cell car.

Fuel-cell cars have all of the advantages of electric cars. Electric cars are clean and quiet, and Tesla Motors (NASDAQ: TSLA ) and its hot Model S sedan have shown that they can be stylish and fun to drive, too.
But electric cars like Tesla's are powered by batteries, special lithium-ion batteries encased in a big battery pack. Those batteries have proven to be a big challenge for engineers and car designers.

Right now, those special batteries are heavy, bulky, and expensive. That means that an electric car that has the range of a conventional gasoline-powered one is also going to be heavy and expensive. Tesla's Model S is sleek and fast, but "heavy and expensive" also describes it pretty well.

Just a few years ago, many analysts believed that electric-car batteries would be getting a lot lighter and cheaper by now. But battery technology hasn't advanced as quickly as electric-car fans have hoped.

That has led automakers to look for alternatives, and fuel cells might be the best of the bunch.

Where will fuel-cell cars get "gas"?
Of course, a fuel-cell car can't be recharged. It requires a tank of hydrogen in order to make electricity. That means you'll still have to refuel your fuel-cell car, at a "gas" station that sells hydrogen.

There aren't very many of those, at least not yet. But researchers are betting that they'll quickly become common if fuel cells show promise. Hydrogen can be made from natural gas, which is both cheap and abundant. It can also be made from water, using a process like a fuel cell in reverse.

I sure hope this pans out better than the solar powered car, the electric car using batteries, etc. Imagine if we could advance past having to be held hostage to ME oil?? They know their power and influence will evaporate should America solve the oil use problem. Which is why the Arab surge and new push for the Islamic caliphate has hit high gear. They know they have to strike while they still can but our government hides this reality from us. We should be asking why and demanding answers .--Tyr

[Arbo]

This car will be a failure. And we can divest ourselves from middle east oil, if those 'in charge' would let us do what is needed and shut the environmentalist weenies up.

[logroller]

The problem that i foresee is that fuel cells, like batteries, are expensive to produce. Then of course theres the issue of needing an infrastructure to provide hydrogen.

[fj1200]

It won't. Unless they've just started mining for domestic hydrogen.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

It won't. Unless they've just started mining for domestic hydrogen.

Surely you jest.. Water yields hydrogen as does natural gas which we have in abundance because its so often a natural by product coming from oil wells.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

The problem that i foresee is that fuel cells, like batteries, are expensive to produce. Then of course theres the issue of needing an infrastructure to provide hydrogen.

The savings and the removal of the foreign influence coming from the need to buy foreign oil are greater compensation. If they perfect it and bring the cost of the vehicle down the infrastructure will come on from private enterprise filling the need IMHO. -TYR

[fj1200]

Surely you jest.. Water yields hydrogen as does natural gas which we have in abundance because its so often a natural by product coming from oil wells.

Yes, I jest. I know we can get hydrogen but it's an expensive process and would require the use of other natural resources to tap. It doesn't seem to be an energy winner especially considering the fuel cell and distributions issues that Log raised.

[logroller]

The savings and the removal of the foreign influence coming from the need to buy foreign oil are greater compensation.

Politically-speaking perhaps, but not economically. I only buy domestically-sourced fuels for political reasons but I often pay more. Thats my choice. Do you believe that government should subsidize that choice?

If they perfect it and bring the cost of the vehicle down the infrastructure will come on from private enterprise filling the need IMHO. -TYR

Thats a big 'if' and considering we've been developing fuel cells for several decades its perfection from a technical standpoint is well-established; its just a question of cost and, practically speaking, the cost of alternatives-- chiefly, oil. So long as the cost of conventional fuels and engines are lower than hydrogen and fuel cells there is little incentive for private enterprise to scale up production of such alternatives because the market is already balanced and while subsidies MAY stimulate innovation that could lower the cost of alternatives they ALWAYS generate Dead-weight losses (an imperfection). To what degree should we support market imperfections?

[jafar00]

If the technology and infrastructure is there in 5-6 years when my current new car is getting old, I would consider one of these. Anything that allows us to clear the air so to speak should be embraced and made cheaper by mass adoption.

It won't. Unless they've just started mining for domestic hydrogen.

Should I register Jovian Mining Pty Ltd now?

[logroller]

If the technology and infrastructure is there in 5-6 years when my current new car is getting old, I would consider one of these. Anything that allows us to clear the air so to speak should be embraced and made cheaper by mass adoption.



Should I register Jovian Mining Pty Ltd now?

Realistically modern cars are very low in emissions already. The biggest contribution of air pollution where I'm from are particulates-- to which even electric cars contribute through brake dust, stirring up latent duct particles etc. The number one indicator for air pollution is vehicle miles travelled (VMT). Reducing this is easily accomplished through such tried and true methods as route planning, car pooling and mass transit.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Politically-speaking perhaps, but not economically. I only buy domestically-sourced fuels for political reasons but I often pay more. Thats my choice. Do you believe that government should subsidize that choice?


Thats a big 'if' and considering we've been developing fuel cells for several decades its perfection from a technical standpoint is well-established; its just a question of cost and, practically speaking, the cost of alternatives-- chiefly, oil. So long as the cost of conventional fuels and engines are lower than hydrogen and fuel cells there is little incentive for private enterprise to scale up production of such alternatives because the market is already balanced and while subsidies MAY stimulate innovation that could lower the cost of alternatives they ALWAYS generate Dead-weight losses (an imperfection). To what degree should we support market imperfections?

Money--profit makes technology leap-- tyr

http://news.discovery.com/tech/gear-...e-pictures.htm

"Joel, this is Marty Cooper, I'd like you to know that I'm calling you from a cellular phone." Exactly 40 years ago, on April 3, 1973, Motorola engineer Martin Cooper placed this call -- the first ever on a cell phone -- to Joel Engel, his rival at AT&T’s Bell Labs. Cooper, now 85, made history in downtown Manhattan using the bulky prototype he had developed.

[logroller]

Money--profit makes technology leap-- tyr


"Joel, this is Marty Cooper, I'd like you to know that I'm calling you from a cellular phone." Exactly 40 years ago, on April 3, 1973, Motorola engineer Martin Cooper placed this call -- the first ever on a cell phone -- to Joel Engel, his rival at AT&T’s Bell Labs. Cooper, now 85, made history in downtown Manhattan using the bulky prototype he had developed.

Theres plenty of money/profit in traditional fuels but I've not heard of one publicly traded fuel cell company to turn a profit.

[fj1200]

Politically-speaking perhaps, but not economically. I only buy domestically-sourced fuels for political reasons but I often pay more. Thats my choice. Do you believe that government should subsidize that choice?

How do you know?

Should I register Jovian Mining Pty Ltd now?

I suppose. Do they have a long-term stream of revenue identified?

Money--profit makes technology leap-- tyr

Link to cost of hydrogen production?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Link to cost of hydrogen production?

http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/news-ev...ctric-vehicles

In what was termed as the ‘chicken and egg’ scenario, the message was clear: Fuel cell and hydrogen technology is market ready and the ideal route to clean transport in Europe. Private public partnerships will continue to be essential to deliver an affordable European-wide hydrogen fuelling infrastructure. Europe must now decide whether it wants to lead the transition to clean transport and secure the associated growth and jobs or whether it wants to follow other global leaders. Public awareness for hydrogen fuel cell technology is imperative. “To maintain Europe’s leading position on clean technology for transport, a stable political framework and joint action is needed to address emissions targets, create new jobs and harness the advanced technology that exists. To deploy hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles requires a combination of reducing costs and increasing efficiency. Consumer acceptance is key for take-up. Decisive European action from industry and Member States is critical to make our transport system more sustainable and environmentally responsible,” said Commissioner Siim Kallas, Vice President of the European Commission in charge of Transport. Industry speakers stressed that no technology succeeds in isolation. Increased production of hydrogen from renewables and hydrogen application for energy storage has the potential to deliver growth and jobs far beyond the transport sector. Other highlights from industry included: Hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles are already on the road, they are safe and ready for the market. Their ranges are comparable to those of internal combustion engine vehicles. They produce no emissions and they are quiet. The cost of the necessary European-wide hydrogen fuelling infrastructure could be five times lower than the cost of the charging network required for battery and plug-in hybrid vehicles. Costs continue to fall on average, by 25% per annum over the last 10 years. The costs of fuel cell systems for vehicles are expected to further decrease by 90% by 2020. The lack of an adequate refuelling infrastructure is the only significant remaining obstacle to a successful roll-out of hydrogen powered fuel cell vehicles across the EU. There are significant efforts on-going in several Member States, such as in Germany, the UK, Scandinavia, Netherlands, France, Italy and other countries. These efforts must be brought together in a coordinated strategy and given a political boost. The event - under the patronage of Carlo Fidanza, MEP and Rapporteur for the Clean Power for Transport Package of the European Parliament’s Transport and Tourism Committee - was organised by Air Liquide, Daimler, Honda, Hyundai, Intelligent Energy, Toyota and Linde in partnership with the Fuel Cells and Hydrogen Joint Undertaking. The high level policy debate included contributions from Siim Kallas, Vice President of the European Commission in charge of Transport, Carlo Fidanza, MEP, Rapporteur of the Clean Power for Transport Package and Dirk Inger, Director, Climate Change, Energy and Environmental Policy, Electric Vehicles, Federal Ministry of Transport, Germany. The day also included an exhibition and opportunities for policymakers, NGOs and media to test-drive four different models of fuel cell electric cars by Daimler, Intelligent Energy, Honda and Hyundai. “Strong public-private partnerships are essential to bringing innovation to the mass market. In Europe, car makers, gas companies and other industry players have been working closely with decision-makers to make clean fuel cell electric vehicles an everyday reality for consumers. A long-term strategy enabling private investment to scale up production to reduce costs and to build sufficient infrastructure is critical for success. We need a decisive European deployment action underpinned by continued cross-border R&D activity. The continuation and further strengthening of the European Research & Development tool, the Fuel Cells and Hydrogen Joint Undertaking, is the right way forward,” added Pierre Etienne Franc, Air Liquide Advanced Business & Technologies Vice President and Chairman of the Fuel Cells and Hydrogen Joint Undertaking. The EU is currently the world's largest producer of motor vehicles, producing almost a third of the world's passenger cars. The automotive industry employs a large number of skilled workers and is responsible for 12 million jobs. It is therefore a key driver to support innovation (€20 bn a year in R&D) and Europe’s competitiveness (annual turnover of €780 bn and a value added of over €140 bn). - See more at: http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/news-ev....IQPrsobA.dpuf

After finding this I am starting to have my doubts. I am not a fan of the EU and have not much confidence in what a bunch of damn socialists do. Yet if they are correct and it leads to a viable and affordable use of hydrogen then all bets are off. A great idea and useful new technology is not to be ignored or condemn because of purely political bias. By the way , I have not and will not endorse government funding this effort here or over there. It should be private enterprise all the way IMHO. --Tyr

[fj1200]

Their ranges are comparable to those of internal combustion engine vehicles. They produce no emissions and they are quiet. The cost of the necessary European-wide hydrogen fuelling infrastructure could be five times lower than the cost of the charging network required for battery and plug-in hybrid vehicles. Costs continue to fall on average, by 25% per annum over the last 10 years. The costs of fuel cell systems for vehicles are expected to further decrease by 90% by 2020. The lack of an adequate refuelling infrastructure is the only significant remaining obstacle to a successful roll-out of hydrogen powered fuel cell vehicles across the EU.

After finding this I am starting to have my doubts.

I think the bold is rather the key. Battery powered cars have range problems and also rare-earth mining/sourcing (Afghanistan/China???) problem which I think could be solved by hydrogen but the problem still remains of obtaining hydrogen; You need to expend one resource to tap that resource.