Muslim man walks into church during easter mass,unfolds prayer mat and starts praying

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Somebody tell me how a true Christian can defend Islam when it denies Christ's divinity....
Tell me how and why any Christian would bust their ass defending those that deny the Savior.
I ask because not just here but at other forums I see so-called Christians doing that as if their very life depended upon it..
Forgiveness is one thing but aiding a group to lead billions into darkness and miss Salvation offered only by Christ is not and can not ever be on the Christian agenda IMHO..

Yet we see people claiming to be Christian do that and do it with vigor and often even hate-filled malice. -Tyr

[jimnyc]

None of the facts I've seen indicate it as a case of trespassing, possibly disturbing the peace but he was praying in church... if that's construed as criminal behavior, it sets a dangerous precedent IMO.

Disturbing the peace IS criminal behavior.

You honestly think it would be bad precedent to charge someone with trespassing, or disturbing the peace? It would be a better precedent to allow anyone, from any religion, to walk into a church during services and go to the altar and do their own thing?

I think stating it as anything other than criminal behavior would be a bad precedent to set. Even though churches open their doors to one and all - that doesn't mean someone has a right to disturb Easter services, to approach the altar or to lay down carpets. He would have been more than welcome had he come in and sat in a chair, or knelt and prayed silently. But he went much farther beyond that, in literally "disturbing" the actual mass.

[tailfins]

Disturbing the peace IS criminal behavior.

You honestly think it would be bad precedent to charge someone with trespassing, or disturbing the peace? It would be a better precedent to allow anyone, from any religion, to walk into a church during services and go to the altar and do their own thing?

I think stating it as anything other than criminal behavior would be a bad precedent to set. Even though churches open their doors to one and all - that doesn't mean someone has a right to disturb Easter services, to approach the altar or to lay down carpets. He would have been more than welcome had he come in and sat in a chair, or knelt and prayed silently. But he went much farther beyond that, in literally "disturbing" the actual mass.

I guess it comes down to how formal the denomination is. Imagine this Muslim guy at a Pentecostal service when a "Esther from Sanford and Son" type starts yelling at the Muslim "Get thee hence Satan" or "Lord, deliver this man from the devil".

[jimnyc]

SO TOMORROW I CAN GO TO A MOSQUE HERE AND DISRUPT THIER SERVICE AS LONG AS I
PRAY TO GOD AND JESUS!!! ??

Just like this guy, if you walk into a mosque and go quietly about your way, and pray, and stay within the mosques practices, and don't disturb other worshippers, you'll be just fine. But if you do anything to stop or interrupt their gathering, then you too should get removed and get a fine or jailed.

I wouldn't condone anyone going into a religious house of worship for anything other than what the house is intended for. If someone is interrupting services, then they are possibly guilty of several offenses, depending on jurisdiction. I don't see a point in arguing jurisdictions and such though since this wasn't in the States. But I don't think any state would or should put up with someone going into another house of worship and being an interruption.

Also, a Muslim gent doesn't just accidentally end up in a church, at the altar, with his prayer rug. It's not like he opened the wrong door and ended up in the church instead of the mosque he intended to go to. Either he is el loco, or he wanted to be a disruption. But even if a mental wacko, it would still be criminal behavior, just that he "might" be able to get off in court due to his illness.

[jimnyc]

I guess it comes down to how formal the denomination is. Imagine this Muslim guy at a Pentecostal service when a "Esther from Sanford and Son" type starts yelling at the Muslim "Get thee hence Satan" or "Lord, deliver this man from the devil".

I understand that some houses of worship aren't quite as formal as others, but they all deserve the right to peacefully worship or attend mass.

If this guy simply walked in off the street, wanted to pray and had no ill will or desire to interrupt, he certainly wouldn't have brought his prayer rug, and most definitely wouldn't have went out of his way to go to the front of the congregation and the altar.

Also, in the USA - there IS actual code and precedent for not just disturbing the peace - but "disturbing a religious meeting" and other offshoots.

[Abbey Marie]

Just like this guy, if you walk into a mosque and go quietly about your way, and pray, and stay within the mosques practices, and don't disturb other worshippers, you'll be just fine. But if you do anything to stop or interrupt their gathering, then you too should get removed and get a fine or jailed.

I wouldn't condone anyone going into a religious house of worship for anything other than what the house is intended for. If someone is interrupting services, then they are possibly guilty of several offenses, depending on jurisdiction. I don't see a point in arguing jurisdictions and such though since this wasn't in the States. But I don't think any state would or should put up with someone going into another house of worship and being an interruption.

Also, a Muslim gent doesn't just accidentally end up in a church, at the altar, with his prayer rug. It's not like he opened the wrong door and ended up in the church instead of the mosque he intended to go to. Either he is el loco, or he wanted to be a disruption. But even if a mental wacko, it would still be criminal behavior, just that he "might" be able to get off in court due to his illness.

Not with the men, if you are female.

[jafar00]

No doubt but the man fully expected to be dragged out into the street and be beaten to death!!
Because anywhere in the world except USA had a Christian walked into Mosque during a muslim holy day service and done that he would have been so treated.

Is that so?

I took my humanist Uncle into several Mosques during Ramadan when he visited me in Cairo. Nothing happened to him while he watched us pray. He enjoyed it.

It may not technically be a crime, but an attempt to disrupt services on the holiest day in the Christian calendar is far from innocent.

I think Tyr's point is valid: Reverse the scenario, and a Christian in a French Mosque would surely be harmed. And fuggetaboutit it if Sharia Law were enforceable.

As someone who went to many French Mosques in France and has witnessed non Muslims observing the proceedings, the opposite is the truth. I remember one man, an observant Christian, held a cross in his hands the whole time. The reaction from the congregation was to talk about his faith and how we are not all that different afterall.

All I can say for sure is that it appears a decent amount of restraint and understanding was used here. This could have easily went upside down. Kudos to those involved for showing others how it can be done, peacefully. I'd say if the gent came back and tried it again - then they should simply press charges and get a restraining order.

Once, I went to a Church in the UK and the priest let me pray in a quiet corner because there was nowhere on the street to do it discretely. I'm not surprised.

I don't know for sure how other places would handle it. But imagine that it's the midst of Ramadan and a Christian guy walks into a mosque, walks to the front and starts doing his own thing and being a disruption to their members? Dare I say I think it would end differently in the overwhelming majority of places.

You are wrong too. If a Christian goes into a Mosque, he/she is welcomed with open arms. It is our religious duty to discuss faith with them and see if they want to convert.

[jimnyc]

Once, I went to a Church in the UK and the priest let me pray in a quiet corner because there was nowhere on the street to do it discretely. I'm not surprised.

Had this guy went quietly into the back and did his thing, without interrupting the ongoing service, he probably would have been allowed as well. It's the up front at the altar, dropping his prayer rug, and reciting Quran verses, all during a mass, that was the issue. It's not that a Muslim went into a church, but rather because he did so during services and went to the altar.

You are wrong too. If a Christian goes into a Mosque, he/she is welcomed with open arms. It is our religious duty to discuss faith with them and see if they want to convert.

Had he quietly went in and went by what the mosque protocol was, perhaps. But doubtful if the christian bloke walked in and went to the "altar" and did his thing, ignored the Imams speaking or whatever they do, and interrupted others in the mosque during services.

It's what he did and how and when - not just because he walked in off of the streets to a church.

[jimnyc]

Not with the men, if you are female.

Had not thought of that. I wonder if... send a grown woman, without a hijab, a christian woman - let her enter mosques in various countries. Walk to prominent areas like this guy did and do her thing on her own, while disrupting the men that are there praying.

I can't imagine a single Islamic country where this ends well. I can't think of a single mosque that will simply sit back and allow this. The best she would hope for would be the same that the church did, which would be quietly escorting her out.

Some will deny it - but imagine Pakistan, Iran, Yemen, Syria or other major Muslims nations - a Christian guy walks into a mosque. He's carrying his bible and wearing a large crucifixion around his neck. He goes to the front, kneels to pray, and starts reciting bible verses. Right or wrong - he is NOT simply getting escorted out in most places. He would be lucky if he escapes with just a beating.

Jafar - if this happens in an Australian mosque, or American, I do think the treatment would be less harsh. Similar to this story where the offender simply gets removed.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Is that so?

I took my humanist Uncle into several Mosques during Ramadan when he visited me in Cairo. Nothing happened to him while he watched us pray. He enjoyed it.

major differences Hoss.
First , your uncle was an invited guest(look that word up) and was escorted by a current member. Plus a relative of a current member..
Next is the biggie = your uncle didn't disrupt services by marching up front , parading a Christian cross and quoting verses the membership have no faith in. You stated he merely observed!!!

So your little comparison falls as fast as a rock to the bottom of the pond IMHO.

What was done was intentional disrespect and an arrogant display intended to show that Islam rules over all. It doesn't, not yet and never will as long as I am alive. As long as even one man rejects it Islam will not rule over all and your version of God(Allah) will meet the fate described in the bible by all that oppose Christ's divinity.
And yes, I know those words just presented by me may get me murdered some future day.

And that's the difference between a true God and a false one. The true ONE taught love, peace and gave a path to Salvation as a gift not an honor to be earned by human deeds. Did so by allowing the sacrifice of his own Son and that Son (Jesus) did so voluntarily.. for forcing would have denied free will which man has.. And Salvation must be a choice made using free will with no human use of force .. No use of sword, gun or bombs. -Tyr

[logroller]

Bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Praying you say!!! Are you truly daft???
To what God?????

]

No way are you this naïve!! So I must then take it that you struggled to find a way to defend this thing because he was Muslim.. [SIZE=4]SO TOMORROW I CAN GO TO A MOSQUE HERE AND DISRUPT THIER SERVICE AS LONG AS I
PRAY TO GOD AND JESUS!!! ??[/SIZE
And that lame post by you was the result of your spin... .... - -Tyr


This defeats your amazingly naïve/gullible post and anybody when any sense at all knows it IMHO..




It was spitting in the faces of the worshippers gathered there and you know it refuse to admit it!!! Why????

wwjd?

[jimnyc]

wwjd?

I would have passed the collection plate over to him. Thanks for asking! You did mean me, right?

[Abbey Marie]

wwjd?

He would probably tell them that the only way to the Father is through Him. And that Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the children of God.

And then turn over a table or two. He was no fan of inappropriate behavior even outside the Temple back in the day.

[logroller]

Disturbing the peace IS criminal behavior.

You honestly think it would be bad precedent to charge someone with trespassing, or disturbing the peace? It would be a better precedent to allow anyone, from any religion, to walk into a church during services and go to the altar and do their own thing?

I think stating it as anything other than criminal behavior would be a bad precedent to set. Even though churches open their doors to one and all - that doesn't mean someone has a right to disturb Easter services, to approach the altar or to lay down carpets. He would have been more than welcome had he come in and sat in a chair, or knelt and prayed silently. But he went much farther beyond that, in literally "disturbing" the actual mass.

Ask yourself, does ejecting the man from church andcharging him with disturbing the peace glorify Him?

[jimnyc]

Ask yourself, does ejecting the man from church andcharging him with disturbing the peace glorify Him?

No, and that's why I originally gave kudos to those involved, for handling it in such a manner. But that doesn't mean that in all cases of interruptions that law enforcement or arrests shouldn't be involved. If someone comes into a house of worship and interrupts a service, or comes with ill intentions, then they should be at the very least removed, and perhaps have authorities called, depending on how bad their actions were. And do we believe it was just a coincidence that this took place on Easter? This was obviously designed for that day with the intent to disrupt, IMO. The church has to also take into account their parishioners who are being interrupted. While I think it's cool that they quietly did what they did, they would have been well within their rights to have him arrested and I really don't think it would have been a sinful thing to do, or otherwise un-Christian like.