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  1. #16
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    There is no country of palistine, there's just un-annexed territory inhabited by local arabs. Therefore there can be no elected govt to be recognized by anyone. The PLA is not a govt, it's an organization designed to handle the welfare of the people in the territory. hamas is a terror organization that has taken control of much of the territory through intimidation and terror. hamas in gaza was elected by the people to replace the PLA. The PLA and hamas have now joined forces. Neither is a govt as that requires a country. But they both want to recognized as a govt.

    Recognize them as a govt then carpet bomb the gaza strip.
    When I die I'm sure to go to heaven, cause I spent my time in hell.

    You get more with a kind word and a two by four, than you do with just a kind word.

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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    ^^ Your point?
    Singing Kumbaya will provide the same result?
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    Singing Kumbaya will provide the same result?
    You complain that somehow I'm looking for validation. You'll complain that everyone is back slapping. You'll imply we'll sing songs and get the same results.

    But what you haven't done is answer any of the questions and actually try to make a go of this thread. And in case you haven't noticed, only 3 of us posted here thus far. Ya might give it some time before ending it prematurely, or at least take the time to answer the question instead of looking to force definitions or bust my balls.

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  6. #19
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    It depends on your definition of is, this is why I call him Bill.
    When I die I'm sure to go to heaven, cause I spent my time in hell.

    You get more with a kind word and a two by four, than you do with just a kind word.

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  8. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    You complain that somehow I'm looking for validation. You'll complain that everyone is back slapping. You'll imply we'll sing songs and get the same results.

    But what you haven't done is answer any of the questions and actually try to make a go of this thread. And in case you haven't noticed, only 3 of us posted here thus far. Ya might give it some time before ending it prematurely, or at least take the time to answer the question instead of looking to force definitions or bust my balls.
    I did answer your question.

    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    If they have the support of the people then they're essentially legitimate.
    And yes, if you don't expect anything to come of it or at least ponder what difference it would make then singing kumbaya provides the same result. I'm singing kumbaya right there with ya' and if this threads ends any differently I'll be pleasantly surprised.

    And yes, Hamas is engaging in terrorist acts against Israeli citizens. I also think they engage in terrorism against their own people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaffer View Post
    It depends on your definition of is, this is why I call him Bill.
    Sorry, I don't blindly accept anyone's premise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaffer View Post
    There is no country of palistine...
    There used to be no country on the North American continent. If Palestine wants to be a country they have a long way to go... considering how much Hamas sucks and all.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


  9. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    I did answer your question.

    And yes, if you don't expect anything to come of it or at least ponder what difference it would make then singing kumbaya provides the same result. I'm singing kumbaya right there with ya' and if this threads ends any differently I'll be pleasantly surprised.

    And yes, Hamas is engaging in terrorist acts against Israeli citizens. I also think they engage in terrorism against their own people.
    Ok, so you think Hamas is legitimate, but at the same time admit they engage in terrorism, even against their own people. Personally, I think people that do such acts, are barred from being seen as legitimate. If they expected to ever be allowed at the table, they should have thought about that prior to their terror ways. Nothing they ever do will change the deaths, the murders and the lives they took. Yes, the people voted for them. Maybe in their little own bubble over there Hamas is seen as legit. But the rest of the world needs to see them as a regular government as a result? What if Al Qaeda strolled into town, and they were voted in. Would you expect a single government in the world to recognize them? Other than the silly Pallies of course... That's what the question is here, and that's what makes a government legitimate, recognition from the world body.

    As for singing, whatever, do what you have to do. I'm not going to play the little games.

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  11. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    Ok, so you think Hamas is legitimate, but at the same time admit they engage in terrorism, even against their own people. Personally, I think people that do such acts, are barred from being seen as legitimate. If they expected to ever be allowed at the table, they should have thought about that prior to their terror ways. Nothing they ever do will change the deaths, the murders and the lives they took. Yes, the people voted for them. Maybe in their little own bubble over there Hamas is seen as legit. But the rest of the world needs to see them as a regular government as a result? What if Al Qaeda strolled into town, and they were voted in. Would you expect a single government in the world to recognize them? Other than the silly Pallies of course... That's what the question is here, and that's what makes a government legitimate, recognition from the world body.

    As for singing, whatever, do what you have to do. I'm not going to play the little games.
    To the best of my knowledge Hamas came to power more legitimately than Hitler did, though acceptance of both by other countries codified their legitimacy. Legitimate governments are culpable for their actions. Thus Germany was pounded into the ground eventually. IMO, Israel's response in not doing just that has been a problem that's brought all the problems up to this point.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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  13. #23
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    HAMAS is....a legitimate TERRORIST GROUP of KILLERS who hide behind Women and CHILDREN. No matter what the ASS, Jimmy Carter says.
    I love to make Liberals Cry, and Whine.
    So, this is for them.
    GOD BLESS AMERICA - IN GOD WE TRUST !

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  15. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    Ok, so you think Hamas is legitimate, but at the same time admit they engage in terrorism, even against their own people. Personally, I think people that do such acts, are barred from being seen as legitimate. If they expected to ever be allowed at the table, they should have thought about that prior to their terror ways. Nothing they ever do will change the deaths, the murders and the lives they took. Yes, the people voted for them. Maybe in their little own bubble over there Hamas is seen as legit. But the rest of the world needs to see them as a regular government as a result? What if Al Qaeda strolled into town, and they were voted in. Would you expect a single government in the world to recognize them? Other than the silly Pallies of course... That's what the question is here, and that's what makes a government legitimate, recognition from the world body.

    As for singing, whatever, do what you have to do. I'm not going to play the little games.
    No game, 'twas merely a joke.

    It's just that the whole thing is a red herring to quibble over some definition of legitimacy. They were unfortunately elected and unfortunately seem to have the support of the people so if you're going to deny their legitimacy the question becomes; now what? But remember, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


  16. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    It's just that the whole thing is a red herring to quibble over some definition of legitimacy. They were unfortunately elected and unfortunately seem to have the support of the people so if you're going to deny their legitimacy the question becomes; now what? But remember, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
    I'm betting that somewhere out there are folks who see Al Qaeda as freedom fighters, and the same with ISIS. They are terrorists, IMO, no matter what fools decide to back a murderous group. Personally, no amount of support for a terrorist group would have me suddenly see them as freedom fighters. You're either purposely killing civilians or you are not. I'm sure Palestinians will say that Hamas are freedom fighters as well. But their terror ways and killing of innocents and children have taken them out of that group, IMO. The Palestinians thinking otherwise, because they also claim to defend them, doesn't retract their terror ways. A person that murders someone, and then saves a drowning child, is still a murderer.

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  18. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    To the best of my knowledge Hamas came to power more legitimately than Hitler did, though acceptance of both by other countries codified their legitimacy. Legitimate governments are culpable for their actions. Thus Germany was pounded into the ground eventually. IMO, Israel's response in not doing just that has been a problem that's brought all the problems up to this point.
    I believe with any more shelling coming into their nation, Israel should in fact turn around and pound them into the ground. Anything short of that is literally the definition of insanity, as the entire world knows that when dealing with them you are getting the same results over and over.

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  20. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    To the best of my knowledge Hamas came to power more legitimately than Hitler did, though acceptance of both by other countries codified their legitimacy. Legitimate governments are culpable for their actions. Thus Germany was pounded into the ground eventually. IMO, Israel's response in not doing just that has been a problem that's brought all the problems up to this point.
    No - I can't agree that Hamas came to power 'more legitimately than Hitler did'.

    Hitler was originally voted into power. So was Hamas. Hitler's Nazis weren't originally terrorists, though over time they 'evolved' (if that's the right word for it) to become a Party which committed horrific acts which can't be thought of as any better than terrorist acts.

    However .. Hamas has always been a terrorist organisation. It exists to be one. Hamas's own Charter commits them to behaviour which locks them into terrorism as mandated methodology, and with goals which are terrorist in nature. Moreover, and I think critically ... Germany was, and is, a bona fide Nation State. Gaza is, by my understanding, NOT one. So, what's legitimate about Hamas as a 'Government' ? Surely, nothing at all.

    My answer to the 'Hamas legitimate ?' question is also a 'HELL NO'. Recognition of any legitimacy of Hamas constitutes an insult to every reputable authoritative body which reasonably earns legitimacy.

    The most legitimate state Hamas can reach is to become a bombed-out crater.
    Last edited by Drummond; 08-08-2014 at 05:48 PM.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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  22. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    No - I can't agree that Hamas came to power 'more legitimately than Hitler did'.

    Hitler was originally voted into power. So was Hamas. Hitler's Nazis weren't originally terrorists, though over time they 'evolved' (if that's the right word for it) to become a Party which committed horrific acts which can't be thought of as any better than terrorist acts.

    However .. Hamas has always been a terrorist organisation. It exists to be one. Hamas's own Charter commits them to behaviour which locks them into terrorism as mandated methodology, and with goals which are terrorist in nature. Moreover, and I think critically ... Germany was, and is, a bona fide Nation State. Gaza is, by my understanding, NOT one. So, what's legitimate about Hamas as a 'Government' ? Surely, nothing at all.

    My answer to the 'Hamas legitimate ?' question is also a 'HELL NO'. Recognition of any legitimacy of Hamas constitutes an insult to every reputable authoritative body which reasonably earns legitimacy.

    The most legitimate state Hamas can reach is to become a bombed-out crater.
    Hitler manipulated, perhaps even caused the death of the chancellor. http://www.ithaca.edu/history/journa...fa03Hitler.htm

    Hamas was truly elected by the Palestinians. In either case, other countries acknowledged each to be legitimately in control.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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  24. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    Hitler manipulated, perhaps even caused the death of the chancellor. http://www.ithaca.edu/history/journa...fa03Hitler.htm

    Hamas was truly elected by the Palestinians. In either case, other countries acknowledged each to be legitimately in control.
    Well, hadn't Hitler's Party already become the electorally dominant Party of the Reichstag ?

    And I've made the point already that Germany was a bona fide Nation State, whereas Gaza doesn't share that status. So on that basis, how can any proper comparison be made of the legitimacy of elections between them ?
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    Well, hadn't Hitler's Party already become the electorally dominant Party of the Reichstag ?

    And I've made the point already that Germany was a bona fide Nation State, whereas Gaza doesn't share that status. So on that basis, how can any proper comparison be made of the legitimacy of elections between them ?
    You didn't read the site. Nothing new there, it actually made news stories at the time, though nothing would stop the nation states from acknowledging him, ala Chamberlain and such.

    Germany in the 20's and early 30's was only a quasi nation state, as been emasculated by the Treaty of Versailles. Hitler certainly changed that.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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