Hamas legitimate?

[SassyLady]

Jim, if you believe that legitimacy is awarded through the democratic process then, yes, Hamas is legitimate. They gained power in 2006 through an election process.

Although they gained power, it's rival, Fatah, were not willing to cede. Civil unrest, assassinations, civilians deaths (I think almost 1,000). In 2007 Hamas got the upper hand and then started doing humanitarian stuff for the citizens .. food banks, schools, hospitals, etc. For awhile they were popular with the citizenry.

So, while we may not like the idea of a terrorist organization/government, it is still possible for it to be legitimate.

Carter thinks that peace won't be achieved until the world sees Hamas as legitimate. He believes that once the world acknowledges their legitimacy they will lay down their weapons and work peacefully with it's neighbors. He's an ostrich and thinks the Osolo Accord process can work here. Obviously, he doesn't understand the Hamas Charter and the willingness of the "legitimate political actor", Hamas, to carry it through to completion.

I just hope Israel is just as committed to taking out or at least convincing Hamas that they are done with negotiating.

[jimnyc]

Jim, if you believe that legitimacy is awarded through the democratic process then, yes, Hamas is legitimate. They gained power in 2006 through an election process.

I don't believe that. Like I stated earlier - what if Palestine decides to elect Al Qaeda? Even though the people voted for them, no way and no how are they legitimate. No country in the world outside of there would recognize them and they would still be a band of murderous terrorists with a long history of terror acts and killing innocents, women and children. No amount of votes, IMO, can somehow change that.

I don't think legitimately being put in office in a particular area makes someone particularly legitimate around the world.

It's so ILLEGITIMATE that the overwhelming majority of countries in the world wouldn't even allow a known terror group to run, let alone hold any type of office.

Lastly, a question to those stating they are perhaps legit - if so - why doesn't the USA, the EU and other major countries have any type of type of diplomatic efforts with them? No meetings? No recognition outside of terrorist status? Is that because we simply disagree with them - or because they are designated a terrorist organization?

[SassyLady]

I don't believe that. Like I stated earlier - what if Palestine decides to elect Al Qaeda? Even though the people voted for them, no way and no how are they legitimate. No country in the world outside of there would recognize them and they would still be a band of murderous terrorists with a long history of terror acts and killing innocents, women and children. No amount of votes, IMO, can somehow change that.

I don't think legitimately being put in office in a particular area makes someone particularly legitimate around the world.

It's so ILLEGITIMATE that the overwhelming majority of countries in the world wouldn't even allow a known terror group to run, let alone hold any type of office.

Lastly, a question to those stating they are perhaps legit - if so - why doesn't the USA, the EU and other major countries have any type of type of diplomatic efforts with them? No meetings? No recognition outside of terrorist status? Is that because we simply disagree with them - or because they are designated a terrorist organization?

Has there ever been a legitimate organization running Palestine? Perhaps therein lies the answer ... Palestine is not legitimate.

I'm sure fj will be here to refute this with some type of UN Charter watchmacallit to dispute this assertion. But, hey, maybe that's the problem. Country not legitimate, governing power not legitimate.

[jimnyc]

Has there ever been a legitimate organization running Palestine? Perhaps therein lies the answer ... Palestine is not legitimate.

I'm sure fj will be here to refute this with some type of UN Charter watchmacallit to dispute this assertion. But, hey, maybe that's the problem. Country not legitimate, governing power not legitimate.

I wouldn't even mind recognizing a governing power that was NOT a terror organization, if that's what helps achieve peace over there. But they will NEVER see peace when they have terrorist scum in charge of Gaza. I believe, whether the country is legit or not, that a terror group remains illegitimate regardless. No country in the entire world would be recognized as a legitimate government if they should somehow vote in Al Qaeda, for example. Sure, they "might" be considered such in whatever shithole voted them in, and they may see them as legit in that little corner, but that's a fantasy, IMO.

A government really can't be a government if said people are leading via terrorism. Then it's a government in name only and not true governing.

[Kathianne]

I'm betting that somewhere out there are folks who see Al Qaeda as freedom fighters, and the same with ISIS. They are terrorists, IMO, no matter what fools decide to back a murderous group. Personally, no amount of support for a terrorist group would have me suddenly see them as freedom fighters. You're either purposely killing civilians or you are not. I'm sure Palestinians will say that Hamas are freedom fighters as well. But their terror ways and killing of innocents and children have taken them out of that group, IMO. The Palestinians thinking otherwise, because they also claim to defend them, doesn't retract their terror ways. A person that murders someone, and then saves a drowning child, is still a murderer.

To the best of my knowledge neither Al Qaeda nor ISIS have been elected by anyone. Hamas was. Now if the latest polling is correct, http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Ne...2#.U-YUnZRX-uY then Hamas may have a problem. Time will tell.

[Drummond]

I'm amazed by what I'm reading.

Hamas is not legitimate. It cannot be, because it is a terrorist organisation ! Why is this not the end of the story .. why is there any question about it at all ???

If I was a bank robber, and I called for people around me to vote me in as a leader of a gang of bank robbers, would this, then, LEGITIMISE my leadership of them, and from it, what I led that gang to do ?? OF COURSE NOT !!

What could be more obvious ?

In Gaza, we have the 'double whammy' effect of Gaza not being a legitimate, stand-alone, Nation State in the first place. Add to that an understanding of what Hamas is ... something far WORSE than a bank-robbing gang, and an organisation intent upon committing acts certainly no more legal than bank robbery is (!!!!) .... and from all this, anyone can think that Hamas is something LEGITIMATE ??

I say it again. I'm amazed !!

I don't care who voted for Hamas, or why, or how many did. If Hamas is legitimate, then bank robbing gangs are as well ... just so long as they have elected leadership to direct their crimes !!!!!

[jimnyc]

To the best of my knowledge neither Al Qaeda nor ISIS have been elected by anyone. Hamas was. Now if the latest polling is correct, http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Ne...2#.U-YUnZRX-uY then Hamas may have a problem. Time will tell.

I never stated otherwise and stated "what if". I'm of the belief that electing a group such as Hamas, or another terrorist organization, does absolutely nothing to change the horrible crimes they have committed. It would be the same if Al Qaeda were in fact elected there. The people of Palestine might very well consider them legit, as they voted for them, but I can't see any sane nation in the world having diplomatic relations with Al Qaeda and considering them legit in anyway at all, regardless of what the ballot box states.

[jimnyc]

If I was a bank robber, and I called for people around me to vote me in as a leader of a gang of bank robbers, would this, then, LEGITIMISE my leadership of them, and from it, what I led that gang to do ?? OF COURSE NOT !!

That's kind of my thinking, votes in no way can relieve people of their crimes and terror ways. And with those still there, I find it impossible to consider them legit. Hezbollah taking over Iran... And what if ISIS runs and is elected in Iraq? Bomb them one day and recognize them the next? So many groups and many countries, but NONE of them, IMO, should ever be considered legitimate, or recognized by other countries, or have any relations at all, IMO.

"We do not negotiate with terrorists"

I think that should include giving them any type of legitimacy at all.

[Drummond]

That's kind of my thinking, votes in no way can relieve people of their crimes and terror ways. And with those still there, I find it impossible to consider them legit. Hezbollah taking over Iran... And what if ISIS runs and is elected in Iraq? Bomb them one day and recognize them the next? So many groups and many countries, but NONE of them, IMO, should ever be considered legitimate, or recognized by other countries, or have any relations at all, IMO.

"We do not negotiate with terrorists"

I think that should include giving them any type of legitimacy at all.

Totally agree, Jim.

I'd also argue that anyone voting for the likes of Hamas is an act that - loosely so, at minimum - makes each and every voter supporting them complicit in the crimes that Hamas commits. After all, to vote Hamas into any position of power is to give them power which aids them in what they do.

So whenever we see (... as we do HOURLY here, courtesy of BBC propagandising) so-called 'innocents' who've suffered the effects of an Israeli strike, we need to consider that it's unlikely that the 'victims' are actually INNOCENT victims.

Of course, you can't sweepingly generalise. Even so, an awful lot of Gazans put Hamas into power. Yet more may be giving them support in very direct ways.

And I don't know whether it's an effect of BBC propagandising, or an actual reflection of the reality in play .. but I've yet to see even ONE Gazan emerge from Israeli strikes and be prepared to declare HAMAS as being at fault !

[jimnyc]

I'd also argue that anyone voting for the likes of Hamas is an act that - loosely so, at minimum - makes each and every voter supporting them complicit in the crimes that Hamas commits. After all, to vote Hamas into any position of power is to give them power which aids them in what they do.

Can't say I disagree here. They shouldn't complain when the group tehy voted in shoots rockets, and then rockets come back in return. Again - consequences. Hamas=violence, so don't be surprised when violence comes around.

I suppose if Al Qaeda magically snuck into the USA, and a small area harbored them, voted them in, cheered for them... I certainly wouldn't and couldn't give a rats ass if they were taken out as collateral damage.

[Drummond]

Can't say I disagree here. They shouldn't complain when the group tehy voted in shoots rockets, and then rockets come back in return. Again - consequences. Hamas=violence, so don't be surprised when violence comes around.

I suppose if Al Qaeda magically snuck into the USA, and a small area harbored them, voted them in, cheered for them... I certainly wouldn't and couldn't give a rats ass if they were taken out as collateral damage.

Here's a thought. What if someone like Jafar moved to the US, managed to get enough voting support to become a State Governor (if Arnie can do it, why not a Muslim foreigner) ... then tried to convert the State into some form of pocket Caliphate ? Or at minimum, made sure that a mosque could be found on nearly every street corner, and did his damndest to get local legislation as much 'Muslim friendly' as possible ?

What if State funds were channelled into Islamic causes .. what if it was done in such a way that those funds found their way into terrorist coffers ?

By the way, here's an example over here of an extremist politician trying to make an English city an 'Israeli-free zone' ... anyone remember George Galloway, ex-Leftie and crawler to Saddam Hussein ??

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014...n_5657464.html

UPDATE: Yorkshire Police have launched an investigation over George Galloway's comments that Bradford is an 'Israel-free zone'.

Israeli tourists are not welcome in Bradford, according to local MP George Galloway in a speech to Respect party activists.

The Guido Fawkes blog posted a video of the Bradford West MP speaking to party members in Leeds in front of a Palestinian flag, calling for harsh, if implausible, measures to protest his anger at the month-long bombardment of the Gaza Strip.

“We have declared Bradford an Israel free zone. We don’t want any Israeli goods. We don’t want any Israeli services. We don’t want any Israeli academics, coming to the university or the college.

"We don’t even want any Israeli tourists to come to Bradford, if any of them had thought of doing so.

"We reject this illegal, barbarous, savage state that calls itself Israel. And you have to do the same.”

The Huffington Post UK has asked the MP's office for clarification on his speech.

Galloway is not the only Bradford MP to stir up controversy over the conflict which has killed nearly 1,900 Palestinians. Liberal Democrat MP David Ward issued what the party described as a "categorical apology", after posting a tweet suggesting that he would "probably" fire rockets from Gaza into Israel.

The Bradford East MP faced a furious backlash and was accused of inciting violence with the comments, but has insisted that his tweets were not intended to support Hamas.

Ward has had a long-running dispute with the Lib Dem leadership over his use of language with regard to Israel.

He also posted a tweet earlier this year calling Israel an "apartheid state" and saying that "Zionists" were "losing the battle".

Galloway too has been criticised previously for directing his anger at the actions of the Israeli government toward ordinary citizens of the country.

Speaking at an event last year at Oxford University in favour of the motion "Israel should withdraw immediately from the West Bank", and less than three minutes into his opponent Eylon Aslan-Levy's speech, Galloway interrupted, asking "You said we. Are you an Israeli?"

Third year student Aslan-Levy answered "I am, yes." Galloway promptly stood up and replied: "I don't debate with Israelis, I've been misled, sorry."

As the Bradford West representative left the room, a member of the audience shouted "racism", to which the MP replied: "I don't recognise Israel and I don't debate with Israelis." Another student added: "But he [Aslan-Levy]'s a person, he's a human being!"

Nice, eh ?

Galloway's stance should be actionable in law, under UK law, on the grounds that it's 'hatespeech' that might lead to incitement to violence. Muslims can use the same law to object to any public pronouncements against Islam, by the way, on those same grounds ...

[Kathianne]

I never stated otherwise and stated "what if". I'm of the belief that electing a group such as Hamas, or another terrorist organization, does absolutely nothing to change the horrible crimes they have committed. It would be the same if Al Qaeda were in fact elected there. The people of Palestine might very well consider them legit, as they voted for them, but I can't see any sane nation in the world having diplomatic relations with Al Qaeda and considering them legit in anyway at all, regardless of what the ballot box states.

That's the whole problem that Israel faces, many states indeed do recognize Hamas leadership as legitimate. Even when the UN says they should stop lobbing missiles at Israel, they condemn Israel for returning fire since their defenses keep them relatively safe.

Only the 'poor' can make war, the rich need to stop or be condemned. Really quite odd, but to some degree I blame Israel for years of 'land for peace' only to have the land given become launch sites. Indeed, that is where the 'settlements' ended up rearing to put a presence there and for the most part it was done not by the government but by conservative Jews.

[fj1200]

I'm betting that somewhere out there are folks who see Al Qaeda as freedom fighters, and the same with ISIS. They are terrorists, IMO, no matter what fools decide to back a murderous group. Personally, no amount of support for a terrorist group would have me suddenly see them as freedom fighters. You're either purposely killing civilians or you are not. I'm sure Palestinians will say that Hamas are freedom fighters as well. But their terror ways and killing of innocents and children have taken them out of that group, IMO. The Palestinians thinking otherwise, because they also claim to defend them, doesn't retract their terror ways. A person that murders someone, and then saves a drowning child, is still a murderer.

And it comes down to opinion on the one hand and irrelevancy on the other. As I earlier predicted much of the "debate" on this issue is validation of one's view. Case in point. \/

No - I can't agree that Hamas came to power 'more legitimately than Hitler did'.

Hitler was originally voted into power. So was Hamas. Hitler's Nazis weren't originally terrorists, though over time they 'evolved' (if that's the right word for it) to become a Party which committed horrific acts which can't be thought of as any better than terrorist acts.

As if that matters. Especially when you consider that you think you get to decide an irrelevant point based on some definition you won't even entertain.

[fj1200]

Lastly, a question to those stating they are perhaps legit - if so - why doesn't the USA, the EU and other major countries have any type of type of diplomatic efforts with them? No meetings? No recognition outside of terrorist status? Is that because we simply disagree with them - or because they are designated a terrorist organization?

We don't? I would presume we did considering the complaints I've heard here about funding Hamas. I don't think that there is a requirement that we have diplomatic efforts with any group we recognize.

Has there ever been a legitimate organization running Palestine? Perhaps therein lies the answer ... Palestine is not legitimate.

I'm sure fj will be here to refute this with some type of UN Charter watchmacallit to dispute this assertion. But, hey, maybe that's the problem. Country not legitimate, governing power not legitimate.

What would I dispute? Palestine is merely an area of land that has been mostly conquered and governed by others for a couple millennium give or take. The history of a hunk of land is largely irrelevant IMO. Shall we count the number of countries that were only hunks of land prior to becoming legitimized countries? Shall we also count the number of countries that are deemed legitimate while also fulfilling the terrorist definition?

[Lemongrass Gogulope]

CBS Incorrectly Claims Hamas Was Elected to Power in Gaza

Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brad-wi...#ixzz3A6rqZPnM

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/11/hamas_in_gaza_how_the_organization_beat_fatah_and_ took_control_of_the_gaza.html

And this article from June, 2007, seems to indicate Hamas was anything but "duly elected."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/14/world/middleeast/14mideast.html