The inside history of WWII

[gabosaurus]

Incredible song by Al Stewart about the German invasion of Russia:

[namvet]

of course the retreating Germans were obligated to slaughter and murder thousands of Russian civilians

atrocities. funny I still remember a man who served in France. told me he witnessed a retreating German who grabbed a French kid by the ankles. then whipped it around smashing the head into a brick wall

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Opening a second front without the means and will to usually ends in disaster. He thought he had Britain isolated and out of it. Had it not been for Roosevelt and Lend Lease, they would have been. He kept taking stuff without securing it. Had he just waited, he could have had everything.

So damn true!!!!!
The typical overreach of bad leader , bad commander. Had he dedicated all forces to defeating Britain , then he could have forced USA TO NEGOTIATE A PEACE, solidify his absolute control over Europe, reorganize to hit and conquer Russia. Instead he made the Napoleonic mistake of trying to conquer Russia in one deep long swoop, the Russia winter got his ass just like it did Napoleon Bonaparte!! The Russians just repeated the same tactics that crash Napoleon's attack. And Hitler was far from being the brilliant military mind of a Napoleon. Even Napoleon was not immune from making a major blunder!
Learn from history or be doomed to repeat it is the old saying and it so aptly applies in this case too .-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I have always considered this the turning point of the war. Hitler got too greedy. He somehow felt the air attacks on London would force a surrender. When it didn't happen immediately, he decided to attack Russia. Which Stalin pretty much anticipated.
If the German navy and Luftwaffe had blockaded the U.K., the Brits would have been forced to negotiate. For some reason, Hitler didn't want that. He wanted outright surrender, which was not coming.
The cat and mouse game between Hitler and Stalin on the Eastern Front makes for fascinating and horrifying reading. How both of them used their own people as pieces on a giant chess board.

When it didn't happen immediately, he decided to attack Russia. Which Stalin pretty much anticipated.

^^^^^^^^ Gabby , do try to bone up on this will you?? -
Sorry, had to laugh at that statement. Stalin was clueless, he had executed one of his own deep undercover spies that rushed from Germany back to Russia to report of the coming German invasion!!
How is that for ANTICIPATION!!!!

Here is proof listed below, but I got my information back in 60/70's from reading books, war books. I studied wars, great battles, great military leaders/generals as a hobby for 50 years now.. -Tyr

“You have only to kick in the door,” said Hitler confidently, “and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down.” Two tons of Iron Crosses were waiting in Germany for those involved with the capture of Moscow. This was always going to be the most brutal war, one which could not be “conducted with chivalry,” as Hitler told his generals, but “conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful, unrelenting harshness.”

Two years earlier, on August 23, 1939, the Nazis and Soviets had signed a non-aggression pact. But both sides knew it was never more than a postponement of hostilities. For the Soviets, it gave them time to build up their defences (in the event little was achieved); and for Hitler the pact gave him time to concentrate on the West (the defeat of France, Britain and elsewhere) before turning his attention eastwards.

May God Bless Our Weapons

Now, in June 1941, with his Western objectives achieved (with the exception of Britain), the time had come.

On the eve of attack, Joseph Goebbels, Hitler’s Minister for Propaganda, wrote in his diary, “One can hear the breath of history… May God bless our weapons!”

Stalin’s spies had forewarned him time and again of the expected attack but he refused to believe it, dismissing it all as ‘Hitler’s bluff’. When warned of the imminent German invasion from a highranking Luftwaffe spy, Stalin responded, ‘Tell your “source” to go fuck his mother.’ He ordered another shot for spreading ‘misinformation’.

Stalin strenuously forbade anything that might appear provocative to the Germans, even insisting on the continuation of Russian food and metal exports to the Germans, as agreed in the Pact. He prohibited the evacuation of people living near the German border and forbade the setting up of defences.

So when, at 4 a.m. on June 22, 1941, Operation Barbarossa was launched, progress was rapid. (Barbarossa was the nickname given to Frederick I, 1122-1190, king of Germany and Holy Roman Emperor). At first, more frightened of Stalin’s prohibition of ‘provocative’ acts than the German armies, Soviet soldiers didn’t dare fire back. When one desperate Soviet border guard signalled, ‘We’re being fired on. What do we do?’, the response came back, ‘You must be mad; and why isn’t your signal in code?’


(June 22 was not the most auspicious date on which to launch an attack on the Soviet Union. It was on June 22, exactly 129 years before, that Napoleon started his ill-fated invasion of Russia.)
- See more at: http://www.historyinanhour.com/2011/....ucjaAyic.dpuf

[NightTrain]

From all accounts I'm aware of, Stalin was caught completely by surprise with Operation Barbarossa.

[Gunny]

From all accounts I'm aware of, Stalin was caught completely by surprise with Operation Barbarossa.

He was. He thought he and Hitler were going to be buds and divide everything. Hitler was too dumb to let it stay that way. Had he not attacked Russia, the outcome of WWII would have been VERY different. It was the game changer.
Stalin was as big a psycho if not worse than Hitler. But truth be told, Russia bore the brunt of ground fighting in WWII. From 41-43/44, they WERE the boots on the ground. Not until Operations Torch and Overlord did Western allied troops engage on the ground in Europe.

But Hitler's first dumbest mistake was trying to bail out Mussolini in Africa. You can't over-extend your lines, put armies in the field you can't support and expect to win.

[NightTrain]

He was. He thought he and Hitler were going to be buds and divide everything. Hitler was too dumb to let it stay that way. Had he not attacked Russia, the outcome of WWII would have been VERY different. It was the game changer.

Yep. Churchill was appalled when he learned of Hitler and Stalin's little agreement - he recognized that with Russia out of the picture, England was about to bear the full brunt of Germany's aggression.

Stalin was as big a psycho if not worse than Hitler. But truth be told, Russia bore the brunt of ground fighting in WWII. From 41-43/44, they WERE the boots on the ground. Not until Operations Torch and Overlord did Western allied troops engage on the ground in Europe.

I'd say Stalin was much worse than Hitler on the psychopath scale. Hitler generally gets top honors because he was the common enemy, and we all know that Victors get to write the history books.... it's a nice perk of winning.

There were many instances where Russian troops were being shot by their commanders as they tried to retreat in the face of a German assault, and those orders came directly from Stalin. One thing Stalin was rich in was millions of peasants and he had no reluctance to use them as cannon fodder. The losses were staggering, but there were millions more where those came from.

But Hitler's first dumbest mistake was trying to bail out Mussolini in Africa. You can't over-extend your lines, put armies in the field you can't support and expect to win.

Mussolini was a cartoon character... completely inept in almost every way, but especially when it came to war. Rommel and his troops had a special hatred for their incompetent allies in North Africa because they were constantly bailing them out.

It's a testament to Rommel's brilliance that he did as well as he did in North Africa with the constant shortage of fuel and supplies that plagued that theatre. The Italian Navy could not keep the shipping lanes open despite Mussolini's assurances that they could & would.

[Gunny]

Yep. Churchill was appalled when he learned of Hitler and Stalin's little agreement - he recognized that with Russia out of the picture, England was about to bear the full brunt of Germany's aggression.



I'd say Stalin was much worse than Hitler on the psychopath scale. Hitler generally gets top honors because he was the common enemy, and we all know that Victors get to write the history books.... it's a nice perk of winning.

There were many instances where Russian troops were being shot by their commanders as they tried to retreat to retreat in the face of a German assault, and those orders came directly from Stalin. One thing Stalin was rich in was millions of peasants and he had no reluctance to use them as cannon fodder. The losses were staggering, but there were millions more where those came from.



Mussolini was a cartoon character... completely inept in almost every way, but especially when it came to war. Rommel and his troops had a special hatred for their incompetent allies in North Africa because they were constantly bailing them out.

It's a testament to Rommel's brilliance that he did as well as he did in North Africa with the constant shortage of fuel and supplies that plagued that theatre. The Italian Navy could not keep the shipping lanes open despite Mussolini's assurances that they could & would.

What can't be forgotten here is Mussolini was Hitler's idol. He had the first successful 20th century fascist regime. The shortage of fuel and supplies was because Hitler over-extended his lines. Hitler should never have tried to bail Mussolini in Africa. He should have concentrated more on the resources Germany needed than conquering political but useless territory. A lesson any good e-3 knows but is still a mystery to our politicians to this day.

Mussolini WAS a cartoon character. His own people hated him. The smart guy in the whole group was Franco. He took Mussolini and Hitler's help then bailed on them and Spain sat out the war.

Stalin. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Not a whole lot more can be said about that. That dude was a megalomaniacal fruit loop.

Coming back around to where this thread started. From what I have heard and read over the years, the front line Russian combat troops weren't the problem. It was the idiots that came after them. The same can be said for US troops. Combat troops are on a mission. The Occupiers that follow are just that .. followers.

[artur axmann]

Hitler had no other choice in 41 but to attack the Soviets. Confirmed reports indicated Stalin had agreed with the Brits to invade from the east no later than summer of 42 or 43.

Resources were critical and for the Reich it was a matter of gaining new oil supplies or facing defeat.

The Fuhrer had no other choice. that was it!

[NightTrain]

Hitler had no other choice in 41 but to attack the Soviets. Confirmed reports indicated Stalin had agreed with the Brits to invade from the east no later than summer of 42 or 43.

Resources were critical and for the Reich it was a matter of gaining new oil supplies or facing defeat.

The Fuhrer had no other choice. that was it!

Interesting.

Okay, sport, let's see your sources.

[artur axmann]

Interesting.

Okay, sport, let's see your sources.

you first.. if you disagree.. what other choices then?

[BoogyMan]

Hitler had no other choice in 41 but to attack the Soviets. Confirmed reports indicated Stalin had agreed with the Brits to invade from the east no later than summer of 42 or 43.

Resources were critical and for the Reich it was a matter of gaining new oil supplies or facing defeat.

The Fuhrer had no other choice. that was it!

Once, just once, post your sources for this commentary. If you want to have a big-boy discussion you have to prove your assertions, Sparky.

[aboutime]

Interesting.

Okay, sport, let's see your sources.

Arthur doesn't believe in using sources. We're all expected to simply BELIEVE everything he says, because he says so.

[namvet]

the avatar artur axmann

Artur Axmann (18 February 1913 – 24 October 1996) was the German Nazi national leader (Reichsjugendführer) of the Hitler Youth (Hitlerjugend) from 1940 to the war's end in 1945. He was the last living Nazi with a rank equivalent to Reichsführer.

[gabosaurus]

Hitler had no other choice in 41 but to attack the Soviets. Confirmed reports indicated Stalin had agreed with the Brits to invade from the east no later than summer of 42 or 43.
Resources were critical and for the Reich it was a matter of gaining new oil supplies or facing defeat.
The Fuhrer had no other choice. that was it!

Dude, I guarantee that I have read more books and done more research than you have. Whether Stalin had plans to attack Germany had been debated by Russian historians for many years. But there is no credible evidence that Stalin ever negotiated with the British about anything prior to the German invasion.
And to think that Germany was facing defeat in 1941 is ludicrous. Hitler was a lot closer to winning the war than losing it.
In the future, you are advised to refrain from spouting BS about subjects that you obviously know little about.