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  1. #1
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    Default Need electrical help!

    I know this happened because you guys laughed at me the other day! I'm pulling my hair out right now.

    My wife hits the bottom of the stairwell and turns of the light switch. When she does, the fan and light back at the top of the stairs turn off. This is normal, as they are 3 way switches and you can turn them on/off from either side.

    What isn't normal, is that it never turned back on again. I'm not saying that her hitting the switch did it, that's just when I went to turn it back on, and it wouldn't. I figured I was going to get a new fan anyway, as this one is 15 years old and ugly. I fugured I would take it apart before I leave, all except for the wiring which I would do when I got back. I took the old fan all the way off - but when I got to the motor housing and lowered it, the light suddenly came back on. I know, you're thinking like I am, that a wire must have been shorted in the housing. I hit the breaker and the light turned off. I used a cheapie meter a bought where you can detect electricity without even touching it. I touched the wires in the housing that went to the ceiling and they were still live according to the meter. I tested sockets and other switches, and the meter was fine. I turned off power to entire house, tested housing again and all was dead. If the breaker took the light out on the fan, shouldn't the HOT wire above went with it too? There are only 2 wires coming out of ceiling - white and black. Only 3 wires attach from fan, white for neautral and blue and black for the fan.

    So I went and got a new fan with LED lighting. Long story short, no light and no fan. But the meter says I have power - although it beeps sporadically, as if it's not a good connection. I hang new fan from hook and connect only neutral on one side, and then black/blue to the black hot wire on the other.

    I think maybe the switches, so I replace both of them, problem persists.

    Now I have fan hanging from ceiling again, but on an angle to wire it. I have just the hot and neautral attached (black/blue to hot) and no matter what I do I can't get the light or fan to turn on - and that's on 2 fans now. Never had power issues to the fan prior to today.

    My arms have been over my head for like 4 hours now and I'm not happy. I need an electrician here!!

  2. #2
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    So I just used my new meter for more testing. The whole house is live and the ceiling wires exposed. I hold the meter next to power cord for computer and she beeps endlessly. I bring into other room and hold up against power cord for lamp, and it beeps endlessly. Mind you, both of these are going through all the sheathing. I then hold it up against the thick copper on the HOT wire from ceiling, it beeps 2x and stops. I have to literally fight to get it to beep again, then it stops. Certainly nothing consistent up there, For awhile there, I held it on the wire for like 10 seconds and no noise, then it started to beep a few times.

    Does the hot wire come from the switch, likely at the top of the stairs? Is it possible that wire went bad somewhere, perhaps shorted out where I can't see it?

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    A few oversized pictures, so click to open in new window for better viewing. You can see the black/blue from the fan, and the white from the fan. You see the ground up top that comes from the new bracket. The 2 "black wires" are actually the white and black wires coming from the ceiling. I placed electrical tape around each as far up as I could, but trust me, if up close you can see the black/white (before you bastards tell me I had them backwards!)

    http://i.imgur.com/wL2MRCj.jpg

    http://i.imgur.com/ZElzCIs.jpg

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    And the wires from the fan only look frayed like that from screwing the damn plastic thing on there like 90,000x already.

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    What would be more expensive for you Jim? Burning the house down, or getting a professional electrician to find the answer?

    Not trying to sound like a smart-ass, but...unless You are a licensed Electrician. Sometimes it's better to get one who IS.
    I love to make Liberals Cry, and Whine.
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  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    So I went and got a new fan with LED lighting. Long story short, no light and no fan. But the meter says I have power - although it beeps sporadically, as if it's not a good connection. I hang new fan from hook and connect only neutral on one side, and then black/blue to the black hot wire on the other.
    Are the fan and the light on the ceiling fan switched separately or is it controlled by one wall switch? That could be adding one extra level of complexity to a 3-way switch.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutime View Post
    What would be more expensive for you Jim? Burning the house down, or getting a professional electrician to find the answer?

    Not trying to sound like a smart-ass, but...unless You are a licensed Electrician. Sometimes it's better to get one who IS.
    Oh, I know, I have no intention of going beyond what a normal consumer would touch when installing. We actually have an electrician here for a half day this upcoming Wednesday to run a connection from our box to the new generator, so I'll likely call him on Tuesday and see if he can perhaps add this to his list.

    But based on the symptoms, I was hoping that others may see/read what I'm writing and have a hunch, one that doesn't include electrocution.

    But you are correct. The woman is upset that I keep fiddling with it and wants me to wait too. I suppose a couple of days won't kill me, but I hate seeing the damn thing hanging there from the ceiling with no power, knowing the power was there just a few hours ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    Are the fan and the light on the ceiling fan switched separately or is it controlled by one wall switch? That could be adding one extra level of complexity to a 3-way switch.
    It's (2) 3 way switches controlling the unit. In other words, I can turn on the light/fan as I go down my stairs, and then turn it back off when I get to the bottom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    Oh, I know, I have no intention of going beyond what a normal consumer would touch when installing. We actually have an electrician here for a half day this upcoming Wednesday to run a connection from our box to the new generator, so I'll likely call him on Tuesday and see if he can perhaps add this to his list.

    But based on the symptoms, I was hoping that others may see/read what I'm writing and have a hunch, one that doesn't include electrocution.

    But you are correct. The woman is upset that I keep fiddling with it and wants me to wait too. I suppose a couple of days won't kill me, but I hate seeing the damn thing hanging there from the ceiling with no power, knowing the power was there just a few hours ago.

    Jim. Did you ever watch HOME IMPROVEMENT with Tim Allen?

    Good luck with the problem. It actually sounds like a faulty switch to me. But...I'm not an electrician. My most technical training was in repairing TELETYPE machines. Before they also became OBSOLETE....Like me.
    I love to make Liberals Cry, and Whine.
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  14. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    It's (2) 3 way switches controlling the unit. In other words, I can turn on the light/fan as I go down my stairs, and then turn it back off when I get to the bottom.
    I know that. Some (all?) ceiling fans are able to control the light and fan separately.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


  15. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutime View Post
    Jim. Did you ever watch HOME IMPROVEMENT with Tim Allen?

    Good luck with the problem. It actually sounds like a faulty switch to me. But...I'm not an electrician. My most technical training was in repairing TELETYPE machines. Before they also became OBSOLETE....Like me.
    It sounds like a bad switch, or wiring from a switch to the unit. I replaced both switches, so that should at least exclude the physical switches themselves. I dunno.

    Oh yeah, saw every episode of Home Improvement, that show was awesome!

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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    I know that. Some (all?) ceiling fans are able to control the light and fan separately.
    Yes, 2 separate cables to turn each on. I believe that the light, on the bottom, will ultimately receive it's power from the fan/motor, which has no power. I'm more concerned with why the meter isn't giving me full reading at that point, and it is everywhere else. At that juncture, the fan hasn't even come into play yet. I wish I had my old meter that would read the actual voltages and not just effing beep!

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    We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language, for we intend to see that the crucible turns our people out as Americans, of American nationality, and not as dwellers in a polyglot boarding-house; and we have room for but one soul loyalty, and that is loyalty to the American people. ~Theodore Roosevelt~

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  19. #14
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    I hate to say this, as a professional electrician, but I would have to see it. Something doesn't sound right. AT is correct. You need to get someone that knows what they're doing. There are just too many variables; especially, with a 3-way.

    First, you should NOT have a constant hot where the fan hooks up. You should have a switch leg that is controlled at the switch. The hot goes to one switch. That's all. It does NOT go to the fixture.

    What it sounds like to me is hitting the switch may have jacked the switch up if you can't get the switch leg to turn off. If you turn it off at the breaker and it doesn't turn off, you're on the wrong breaker. You could have other circuits in that box.

    If the wiring is romex, lord only knows how it's wired. The colors could mean nothing. Romex rockets are usually high as kites and under pressure to slap that crap together as fast as they can.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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  21. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    I hate to say this, as a professional electrician, but I would have to see it. Something doesn't sound right. AT is correct. You need to get someone that knows what they're doing. There are just too many variables; especially, with a 3-way.

    First, you should NOT have a constant hot where the fan hooks up. You should have a switch leg that is controlled at the switch. The hot goes to one switch. That's all. It does NOT go to the fixture.

    What it sounds like to me is hitting the switch may have jacked the switch up if you can't get the switch leg to turn off. If you turn it off at the breaker and it doesn't turn off, you're on the wrong breaker. You could have other circuits in that box.

    If the wiring is romex, lord only knows how it's wired. The colors could mean nothing. Romex rockets are usually high as kites and under pressure to slap that crap together as fast as they can.
    That's why I need an electrician for sure then... I just "assumed" that the black wire out of the ceiling was always hot unless the breaker was off. Plus I replaced both switches. It was working this morning, and now it's not, and hitting that switch was the last time any action occurred. At least an electrician will have proper meters and can at least properly test all connections, and not rely on some 10 dollar beeping thing! Still pisses me off, as this shouldn't have been so damn hard.

    Waiting a couple of days is the answer. A good coincidence that I have a pro coming already, I just hope he has a little time to set aside for this.

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