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    Default unlimited access to communications of every American


    Taps for Amendment IV

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


    ..........
    According to Congressman Justin Amash, Congress just passed a bill which grants the government and law enforcement “unlimited access to the communications of every American”.

    According to Congressman Justin Amash, Congress just passed a bill which grants the government and law enforcement “unlimited access to the communications of every American”.
    When the Michigan lawmaker discovered that the Intelligence Authorization Act for FY 2015 had been amended with a provision that authorizes “the acquisition, retention, and dissemination” of all communications data from U.S. citizens, he desperately attempted to organize a roll call vote on the bill.
    However, the legislation was passed yesterday 325-100 via a voice vote, a green light for what Amash describes as “one of the most egregious sections of law I’ve encountered during my time as a representative”.
    The bill allows the private communications of Americans to be scooped up without a court order and then transferred to law enforcement for criminal investigations.
    The legislation effectively codifies and legalizes mass warrantless NSA surveillance on the American people, with barely a whimper of debate.
    Read the full text of Congressman Amash’s letter below, which was sent out before the bill was passed.
    *********************
    Dear Colleague:
    The intelligence reauthorization bill, which the House will vote on today, contains a troubling new provision that for the first time statutorily authorizes spying on U.S. citizens without legal process.
    Last night, the Senate passed an amended version of the intelligence reauthorization bill with a new Sec. 309—one the House never has considered. Sec. 309 authorizes “the acquisition, retention, and dissemination” of nonpublic communications, including those to and from U.S. persons. The section contemplates that those private communications of Americans, obtained without a court order, may be transferred to domestic law enforcement for criminal investigations.
    To be clear, Sec. 309 provides the first statutory authority for the acquisition, retention, and dissemination of U.S. persons’ private communications obtained without legal process such as a court order or a subpoena. The administration currently may conduct such surveillance under a claim of executive authority, such as E.O. 12333. However, Congress never has approved of using executive authority in that way to capture and use Americans’ private telephone records, electronic communications, or cloud data.
    Supporters of Sec. 309 claim that the provision actually reins in the executive branch’s power to retain Americans’ private communications. It is true that Sec. 309 includes exceedingly weak limits on the executive’s retention of Americans’ communications. With many exceptions, the provision requires the executive to dispose of Americans’ communications within five years of acquiring them—although, as HPSCI admits, the executive branch already follows procedures along these lines.
    In exchange for the data retention requirements that the executive already follows, Sec. 309 provides a novel statutory basis for the executive branch’s capture and use of Americans’ private communications. The Senate inserted the provision into the intelligence reauthorization bill late last night. That is no way for Congress to address the sensitive, private information of our constituents—especially when we are asked to expand our government’s surveillance powers.
    I urge you to join me in voting “no” on H.R. 4681, the intelligence reauthorization bill, when it comes before the House today.
    /s/
    Justin Amash
    Member of Congress

    last nail in the coffin.
    No good party member was going to elect any president that was REALLY going to rein in the NSA etc domestic spying programs anyway. that'd be to radical and crazy.
    But now it's out of the presidents hands. (after Obama signs it, which i'm sure he will) . it will be LAW. Not executive order or 'rouge' agency. But LAW that the U.S. Gov't can spy on every citizen and send info to ANY 'law enforcement' that request it and use it against you.
    So basically we are now East Germany on high tech steroids , the secret police full spectrum surveillance is OFFICIALLY here.


    They voted 325 to 100 , so don't piss on Obama here, the spying was going on before him.
    How did YOUR congress-person vote on this?

    I'll be calling mine on monday for all the good it will do. At least it'll be on record somewhere for history.
    When they write what happen to the freedoms of the U.S..

    they'll vote in Enhanced interrogation techniques for Americans who don't give enough info via phone, the clouds, etc.. in a few years i suspect. I'm told it "works" and "saves lives" why not bring it home?
    tell me i'm paranoid conspiracy theorist.
    Seems that's what they said years ago when i said the gov't is recording all of phone calls too.

    but don't worry it's all for your protection, who needs the bill of rights when you can trust the gov't "just obey the law" "if you've got nothing to hide..." you'll be fine as long as we get a REPUBLICAN to run the show
    Last edited by revelarts; 12-13-2014 at 09:58 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    On the same day Feinstein decried the actions of the CIA (infringing on the civil liberties of others by using torture) on the Senate floor, she stealthy added an amendment to an appropriations bill that gives the executive branch and law enforcement agencies virtually unlimited access to the private communications of persons (citizens or non-citizens) in the United States without approval from a judge.
    The bill was then rushed to the House floor on Wednesday for a voice-vote without much debate. While Amash went before the House to demand a roll call vote, there was not enough time to stop the bill. It passed 325-100, with 9 lawmakers not voting. Forty-five Republicans and 55 Democrats voted “Nay.”


    Here is a list of the 100 lawmakers who voted “Nay.” Was yours one of them?

    Amash (R-Mich.)
    Bass (D-Calif.)
    Bentivolio (R-Mich.)
    Blumenauer (D-Ore.)
    Bonamici (D-Ore.)
    Brat (R-Va.)
    Bridenstine (R-Okla)
    Brooks (R-Ala.)
    Broun (R-Ga.)
    Burgess (R-Texas)
    Chu (D-Calif.)
    Clark (D-Mass.)
    Clarke (D-N.Y.)
    Clawson (R-Fla.)
    Cohen (D-Tenn.)
    Conyers (D-Mich.)
    Cummings (D-Md.)
    DeFazio (D-Ore.)
    DelBene (D-Wash.)
    DesJarlais (R-Tenn.)
    Doggett (D-Texas)
    Doyle (D-Penn.)
    Duncan (R-S.C.)
    Duncan (R-Tenn.)
    Eshoo (D-Calif.)
    Farr (D-Calif.)
    Garamendi (D-Calif.)
    Garcia (D-Fla.)
    Garrett (R-N.J.)
    Gibson (R-N.Y.)
    Gohmert (R-Texas)
    Gosar (R-Ariz.)
    Gowdy (R-S.C.)
    Graves (R-Ga.)
    Grayson (D-Fla.)
    Griffith (R-Va.)
    Grijalva (D-Ariz.)
    Gutiérrez (D-Ill.)
    Hahn (D-Calif.)
    Hanabusa (D-Hawaii)
    Hastings (D-Fla)
    Heck (D-Wash.)
    Holt (D-N.J.)
    Honda (D-Calif.)
    Huelskamp (R-Kan.)
    Huffman (D-Calif.)
    Jackson Lee (D-Texas)
    Jones (R-N.C.)
    Jordan (R-Ohio)
    Kaptur (D-Ohio)
    Kildee (D-Mich)
    Kingston (R-Ga.)
    Labrador (R-Idaho)
    Lee (D-Calif.)
    Lewis (D-Ga.)
    Lofgren (D-Calif.)
    Lowenthal (D-Calif.)
    Lummis (R-Wyo.)
    Massie (R-Ky.)
    Matsui (D-Calif.)
    McClintock (R-Calif.)
    McCollum (D-Minn.)
    McDermott (D-Wash.)
    McGovern (D-Mass.)
    Meadows (R-N.C.)
    Mica (R-Fla.)
    Moore (D-Wis.)
    Mulvaney (R-S.C).
    Nadler (D-N.Y.)
    Nugent (R-Fla.)
    O’Rourke (D-Texas)
    Pallone (D-N.J.)
    Perry (R-Penn.)
    Pocan (D-Wis.)
    Poe (R-Texas)
    Polis (D-Colo.)
    Posey (R-Fla.)
    Rangel (D-N.Y.)
    Ribble (R-Wis.)
    Roe (R-Tenn.)
    Rohrabacher (R-Calif.)
    Salmon (R-Ariz.)
    Sanford (R-S.C.)
    Schakowsky (D-Ill.)
    Scott, Austin (R-Ga.)
    Sensenbrenner (R-Wis.)
    Serrano (D-N.Y.)
    Speier (D-Calif.)
    Stockman (R-Texas)
    Swalwell (D-Calif.)
    Takano (D-Calif.)
    Tierney (D-Mass.)
    Tipton (R-Colo.)
    Velázquez (D-N.Y.)
    Waters (D-Calif.)
    Weber (R-Texas)
    Welch (D-Vt.)
    Woodall (R-Ga.)
    Yarmuth (D-Ky.)
    Yoho (R-Fla.)
    Note: It is not fully clear how many of these lawmakers voted against the bill because of the new Section 309.

    http://ivn.us/2014/12/11/congress-qu...ommunications/

    http://www.teapartytribune.com/2014/...ommunications/
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Dude...........you're just NOW catching on? Sigh...........Btw. you CAN shield many of your communiques already and more ways to defeat the NSA, and government intrusion, are being developed.

    Americans, by our very nature, are a defiant, independent thinking, and CLEVER lot.....dontcha know..cha cha cha..
    “Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.”

    Winston Churchill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo View Post
    Dude...........you're just NOW catching on? Sigh...........Btw. you CAN shield many of your communiques already and more ways to defeat the NSA, and government intrusion, are being developed.

    Americans, by our very nature, are a defiant, independent thinking, and CLEVER lot.....dontcha know..cha cha cha..
    spread the info Neo.
    i'd like as many tools as possible.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Many will deny it, or laugh at it, or shrug their shoulders but...There are several OLD, but USEFUL ways we can all get around whatever THREATS you feel we have to our communications today.

    And, as simple as they sound. They are far more effective to fighting the intrusions everyone is ONLY NOW learning about...as in the Unlimited Spying of the NSA, and our Government.

    If anyone is too reliant on today's technology..LIKE THE INTERNET. Facts are. The smart people only need to go back to PRE-INTERNET, PRE-CELL PHONE times when (Don't fall off your chair) We, as Human beings revert back to FACE-TO-FACE, private conversation with other Human beings. And...are you ready for this?

    Go back to using a pencil, or pen, writing on paper, using an envelope, and a stamp...sending whatever you feel like saying IN PRIVATE to whoever you want. And the NSA, or OBAMA will never know what you said.

    IMAGINE THAT? What a wild idea?
    I love to make Liberals Cry, and Whine.
    So, this is for them.
    GOD BLESS AMERICA - IN GOD WE TRUST !

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    Obviously you haven't read the entire document very well:

    https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bil...raryofcongress

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    When the Michigan lawmaker discovered that the Intelligence Authorization Act for FY 2015 had been amended with a provision that authorizes “the acquisition, retention, and dissemination” of all communications data from U.S. citizens, he desperately attempted to organize a roll call vote on the bill.
    I know this isn't your words, Rev, but was part of your post. so just quoting so all on the same page.

    Quote Originally Posted by gabosaurus View Post
    Obviously you haven't read the entire document very well:

    https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bil...raryofcongress
    I did a search on that page for "acquisition" and "retention" and this is all that came up. Maybe it changed from the time Rev originally posted? But that post states it was a done deal and voted on already? Enacted on Dec 19th...

    --------

    Section309 -
    Requires each element of the intelligence community to adopt Attorney General-approved procedures for any intelligence collection activity not otherwise authorized by court order or subpoena that is reasonably anticipated to result in the acquisition of nonpublic telephone or electronic communications to or from a U.S. person, including communications in electronic storage, without the consent of a person who is a party to the communication.
    Requires the procedures to permit acquisition, retention, and dissemination of such communications but prohibit retention in excess of five years unless:
    the communication constitutes, or is necessary to understand or assess, foreign intelligence or counterintelligence; the communication constitutes evidence of a crime and is retained by a law enforcement agency; the communication is enciphered or reasonably believed to have a secret meaning; all parties to the communication are reasonably believed to be non-U.S. persons; retention is necessary to protect against an imminent threat to human life (in which case the information must be reported to Congress within 30 days of the date such retention is extended) or for technical assurance or compliance purposes, including a court order or discovery obligation (in which case the information must be reported to Congress annually); or the head of an element of the intelligence community approves retention for a period in excess of five years if necessary to protect U.S. national security.
    Requires the head of an element approving retention in excess of five years for national security purposes to certify to Congress:
    (1) the reasons extended retention is necessary to protect U.S. national security,
    (2) the duration of the retention,
    (3) the particular information to be retained, and
    (4) the measures being taken to protect the privacy interests of U.S. persons or persons located inside the United States.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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    Then I did a search on: “the acquisition, retention, and dissemination” of all communications data from U.S. citizens

    And not much comes up, other than sites like infowars, upwardpost, sodahead...

    I'm not saying that this bill is great or anything like that, and can still be an overreach, but the one line that makes people want to flip out seemingly is not in the bill.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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    Still not great, but here is the change:

    Originally, apparently:

    “the acquisition, retention, and dissemination” of all communications data from U.S. citizens
    Requires each element of the intelligence community to adopt Attorney General-approved procedures for any intelligence collection activity not otherwise authorized by court order or subpoena that is reasonably anticipated to result in the acquisition of nonpublic telephone or electronic communications to or from a U.S. person, including communications in electronic storage, without the consent of a person who is a party to the communication.
    Requires the procedures to permit acquisition, retention, and dissemination of such communications but prohibit retention in excess of five years unless:
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    Still not great, but here is the change:

    Originally, apparently:
    SO basically all communications right?
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutime View Post
    Many will deny it, or laugh at it, or shrug their shoulders but...There are several OLD, but USEFUL ways we can all get around whatever THREATS you feel we have to our communications today.

    And, as simple as they sound. They are far more effective to fighting the intrusions everyone is ONLY NOW learning about...as in the Unlimited Spying of the NSA, and our Government.

    If anyone is too reliant on today's technology..LIKE THE INTERNET. Facts are. The smart people only need to go back to PRE-INTERNET, PRE-CELL PHONE times when (Don't fall off your chair) We, as Human beings revert back to FACE-TO-FACE, private conversation with other Human beings. And...are you ready for this?

    Go back to using a pencil, or pen, writing on paper, using an envelope, and a stamp...sending whatever you feel like saying IN PRIVATE to whoever you want. And the NSA, or OBAMA will never know what you said.

    IMAGINE THAT? What a wild idea?
    Face to face is very good but not always possible.

    But Postal mail is being watched and read at a certain level now without warrants as well.'
    see links below

    NSA surveillance: Why the Post Office doesn't spy on your mail the ...
    www.slate.com/ articles/ technology/ data_mine_1/ 2013/ 06/ nsa_surveillance_why_the_post_office_doesn_t_spy_o n_your_mail_the_way _nsa.html - View by Ixquick Proxy - Highlight
    Jun 12, 2013 ... Why it's so much harder for the government to spy on your snail mail than ... That action—handling someone else's mail, reading the contents ...

    The U.S. Government Is Suddenly Way, Way More Interested In ...
    https://firstlook.org/ theintercept/ 2014/ 10/ 28/ youve-got-mail-government-reading/ - View by Ixquick Proxy - Highlight
    Oct 28, 2014 ... Old-fashioned mail, the kind sent through the U.S. Post Office, has fallen out of ... become extremely interested in reading a lot of people's mail.

    U.S. Postal Service Logging All Mail for Law Enforcement - NYTimes ...
    www.nytimes.com/ 2013/ 07/ 04/ us/ monitoring-of-snail-mail.html?pagewanted=all - View by Ixquick Proxy - Highlight
    Jul 3, 2013 ... A Postal Service program created after anthrax attacks gathers photos of ... map of your contacts, even if they aren't reading the contents,” he said. ... in 2007 that the federal government had the authority to open mail without ...

    The U.S. Government Tracks All The Snail Mail You Send Too - Forbes
    www.forbes.com/ sites/ kashmirhill/ 2013/ 07/ 03/ the-u-s-government-tracks-all-the-snail-mail-you-send-too/ - View by Ixquick Proxy - Highlight Jul 3, 2013 ... It turns out that communication tracking is not limited to email and phone. The government has been doing the same thing for postal mail for ...

    Frequently Asked Questions - United States Postal Inspection Service
    https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/contactUs/faq.aspx - View by Ixquick Proxy - Highlight
    Can Postal Inspectors open mail if they feel it may contain something illegal? ... with other investigative and law enforcement agencies of the Government. 8.

    The U.S. Postal Service Is Monitoring Your Snail Mail
    www.thenewamerican.com/ usnews/ constitution/ item/ 15897-the-us-postal-service-is-monitoring-your-snail-mail - View by Ixquick Proxy - Highlight
    Jul 3, 2013 ... The U.S. government is not content to monitor your phone calls and your Internet activity; it's now reading your snail mail, too. A story in the New ...


    Tuesday's Morning Email: Government Monitoring USPS Mail
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/1...n_6059990.html - View by Ixquick Proxy - Highlight
    Oct 28, 2014 ... Tuesday's Morning Email: Government Monitoring USPS Mail ... united states postal service. TOP STORIES ... And like what you're reading?

    Report: Postal Service uses "spying" programs similar to NSA - CBS ...
    www.cbsnews.com/ news/ report-postal-service-uses-spying-programs-similar-to-nsa/ - View by Ixquick Proxy - Highlight
    Jul 4, 2013 ... It's one of two programs The Times says shows that postal mail is under similar ... It is not known how long the government saves the images. ... a pretty good map of your contacts, even if they aren't reading the contents.".

    U.S. Postal Service 'mail imaging' program used for law enforcement ...
    http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/p...-mail-imaging/ - View by Ixquick Proxy - Highlight
    Nov 23, 2014 ... The Postal Service runs a massive surveillance dragnet of all the mail in the USA; databasing the ... The mail cover surveillance requests cut across all levels of government — from global intelligence ... Read moreShow less.


    .....

    But i have to say , If it save one life then it must be OK right?

    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    SO basically all communications right?
    For starters:

    Requires each element of the intelligence community to adopt Attorney General-approved procedures
    What are these approved procedures? That's what I would want to know first. That will dictate who and how many. But no, it's definitely not all. It would appear that the detention discussed in this bill would need approval from congress, or at least some of it. It also talks of "foreign intelligence", and further states:

    all parties to the communication are reasonably believed to be non-U.S. persons
    I STILL don't trust them, but I don't think it reads as they are grabbing and retaining "all" communications.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    For starters:



    What are these approved procedures? That's what I would want to know first. That will dictate who and how many. But no, it's definitely not all. It would appear that the detention discussed in this bill would need approval from congress, or at least some of it. It also talks of "foreign intelligence", and further states:



    I STILL don't trust them, but I don't think it reads as they are grabbing and retaining "all" communications.
    ok but look,
    "...Attorney-General approved procedures..." is a full on Blank Check. that's the problem. that legally means unlimited. the 'procedures' are what they say when they say it, written, verbal or maybe even implied by on going activity. Who's butts are covered by this wording our's or law enforcement's? There are rules that add one line that change t all as well. "this rule will apply RETROACTIVELY..." . However the procedure is laid out the law's just a Blank Check to the gov't.

    and the law says
    "...for any intelligence collection activity not otherwise authorized by court order or subpoena..." "...to or from a U.S. person..." "... without the consent of a person who is a party to the communication...."

    that covers us everyone and all our stuff.

    The NSA has already admitted that it is in fact grabbing all communications and storing it in Utah. So that's a done deal, the FBI either has it own thing going parallel or is accessing there's. So all does in fact mean ALL. And the 5 year limit with loopholes, who's going to enforce that? the attorney general?

    If someone says.
    'Sam please consume a pile of human waste material.'
    it is in fact the same thing as saying,
    'Sam eat Sh!t.'
    Last edited by revelarts; 12-26-2014 at 09:22 AM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    all parties to the communication are reasonably believed to be non-U.S. persons
    So this comes down to it being akin to spying on foreigners, but you're making it sound as if every American telephone call will be saved based on this bill, and it simply states otherwise.

    Attorney-General approved procedures.
    Can you quote these approved procedures for me, Rev? Because if it's a blank check as you say, and different than this being non-US persons, I'm not seeing it.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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    Rev, with all due respect, I think you're picking out single lines and making more out of it. I could do that too, for example:

    the communication is enciphered or reasonably believed to have a secret meaning; all parties to the communication are reasonably believed to be non-U.S. persons; retention is necessary to protect against an imminent threat to human life
    But I think if you look at the bill as a whole, it's simply an intelligence tool for monitoring and recording potential foreign communications, crime related of course. Where it mentions the US person, it would appear that this is where the AG procedures come into play. You assume that means it is a blank check. I would like to see/read what these procedures are before assuming it means that they can just do whatever they like. From my perspective, it sounds like their would only be certain circumstances in where it would be allowed, based on the AG instructions. But we won't know for sure without reading them. I'll look around and see if I can find anything more on that side.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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