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    Default Choose To Vaccinate

    Only the ignorant, pretending to be so erudite, don't. Until the 'Disneyland' attack, it was
    assumed that there wasn't a problem, measels were so past..

    http://www.kidnurse.org/baby-deserve-exposed-measles/

    *For confidentiality purposes, the identity of the children described in this post was changed. However, their mother hopes that this post brings awareness about measles and prevents others from experiencing what her family is going through right now.

    Allow me to introduce you to my dear friend’s baby. This is Jack. Jack is the happiest 10 month old boy you could ever hope to meet. He is chubby and handsome. He’s also tough. In his short little life he has already gone through several surgeries from a few health challenges, but through it all, he has the biggest, happiest smile. His mother Tiffany is one of the sweetest, strongest human beings you could ever hope to meet. We have known each other for quite a while, so I write this post not only as a nurse practitioner, but as a friend. Yesterday, I received some terrible news about Jack that led me to think about this question:

    Does this sweet baby deserve to be exposed to the measles?

    Why do I ask such a question? Because, unfortunately, we are living in a time where it has to be asked. Even though some of the greatest scientific minds have spent the better part of this century trying to eliminate this awful disease with a safe, effective vaccine, many parents still think it is okay to potentially expose their own children and other children to this deadly disease by not vaccinating. Why? They are incorrectly more afraid of a vaccine than the potentially-deathly disease itself. However, it is time to put this question to rest. Allow me to be clear...


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    Those pretending to be erudite are real trouble. Those who point out facts and ask people to assess the pros and cons for themselves. And use there God given rights to determine their families path to health should be welcomed. Each side should respect the facts presented rather than blindly attack it seems to me.


    The recent outbreaks of measles in Canada and the United States came as a shock to many public health experts. But not to Dr. Gregory Poland, one of the world's most admired and most advanced thinkers in the field of vaccinology.The measles vaccine has failed, he explained two years ago in a prescient paper, "The re-emergence of measles in developed countries." In that paper, he warned that due to factors that most haven't noticed, measles has come back to be a serious public health threat. Thankfully, in that paper and elsewhere he also spelled out in no-nonsense fashion what now needs to be done.
    Dr. Poland is no vaccine denier. Not only is he among the harshest and most outspoken critics of the "irrationality of the antivaccinationists," he is also one of the strongest proponents for vaccines and the good that they can do. As Professor of Medicine and founder and leader of the Mayo Clinic's Vaccine Research Group, one of the world's largest vaccine research organizations; as editor-in-chief of the peer-reviewed scientific journal,Vaccine; as recipient of numerous awards; as chair of vaccine data monitoring committees for pharmaceutical giant Merck; as patent holder in various vaccines processes; as someone who enjoys special employee status with the Centers for Disease Control and the U.S. Department of Defense and as someone who has sat on every federal committee that has dealt with vaccines, no one can accuse him of seeing vaccines from a narrow perspective.
    And he sees the need for a major rethink, after concluding that the current measles vaccine is unlikely to ever live up to the job expected of it:
    "Outbreaks are occurring even in highly developed countries where vaccine access, public health infrastructure, and health literacy are not significant issues. This is unexpected and a worrisome harbinger -- measles outbreaks are occurring where they are least expected," he wrote in his 2012 paper, listing the "surprising numbers of cases occurring in persons who previously received one or even two documented doses of measles-containing vaccine."
    During the 1989-1991 U.S. outbreaks, 20 per cent to 40 per cent of those affected had received one to two doses. In a 2011 outbreak in Canada, "over 50 per cent of the 98 individuals had received two doses of measles vaccine."
    Dr. Poland noted 15 U.S. outbreaks between 2005 and 2011 and 33 in Europe in 2011 alone, involving more than 30,000 known cases. Meanwhile, the "UK has declared measles once again endemic ... such outbreaks result from both failure to vaccinate, and vaccine failure."
    People's failure to get vaccinated is deplorable, Dr. Poland often stresses. But the more fundamental problem stems from the vaccine being less effective in real life than predicted, with a too-high failure rate -- between 2 per cent and 10 per cent do not develop expected antibodies after receiving the recommended two shots. Because different people have different genetic makeups, the vaccine is simply a dud in many, failing to provide the protection they think they've acquired.....
    http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/im-...nt-outbreaks-1


    Just as a personal note,
    My little brother got the measles when he was around 2 years old. He had been vaccinated, my mom was a nurse and did everything by the book. He was quarantined in the hospital until he recovered. Thankfully with no issues.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    and 4 years later. . .

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/24/healt...-bn/index.html

    US measles outbreak is largest since disease was declared eliminated in 2000

    By Jacqueline Howard and Debra Goldschmidt, CNN


    Updated 12:15 PM ET, Wed April 24, 2019...


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    I'm not sure how this works state-to-state. Here, it's not optional. No vaccinations? No kid in school. Being a military brat, I was always up to snuff on my shots, and then some so I never really gave it much thought until I saw in the news after I retired.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    I'm not sure how this works state-to-state. Here, it's not optional. No vaccinations? No kid in school. Being a military brat, I was always up to snuff on my shots, and then some so I never really gave it much thought until I saw in the news after I retired.
    Hate to break it to you Gunny, but even in Texas you can get a vaccine exemption for your child.

    https://www.dshs.texas.gov/immunize/...xemptions.aspx

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    Quote Originally Posted by STTAB View Post
    Hate to break it to you Gunny, but even in Texas you can get a vaccine exemption for your child.

    https://www.dshs.texas.gov/immunize/...xemptions.aspx
    What would a rule in this country be without a half-dozen or more exceptions? The rule is if you don't have your shots, you don't go to school. If knuckleheads want to waste their time getting those "exceptions", it's their time and their dime.

    And just for funsies .... I fell under one of those exceptions . We went overseas when I was 2 the first time. Been a military pin cushion since. And we STILL got chickenpox and measles. There were no vaccines for them back then.

    As I said, I never thought anything about it. Came up once when I retired, I think, when I moved from CA to here and I had to produce the rugrat's shot record to enroll her in school.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    Default Choose To Vaccinate

    Some things go beyond individual rights

    Being vaccinated is one of them

    Sorry. Vaccines save lives, and prevent the spread of disease.

    Starting in 1917, the Spanish flu pandemic killed 33 million people in 18 months. As many people as World War I did in several years.

    The Bubonic Plague during the 13th century killed more people in Europe in 3 years than WWII did in 6 years

    At one time, smallpox killed a quarter of a million people... each year. Today it has been eradicated.

    Forget a nuclear war, humanity could be wiped out by a virus or superbug. By vaccinating your child, you not only spare him from an early death but, due to a phenomenon known as “herd immunity”, you are also sparing everyone he comes in contact with from the same fate.
    How do you tell a Communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin. - Ronald Reagan

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    Quote Originally Posted by KarlMarx View Post
    Some things go beyond individual rights

    Being vaccinated is one of them

    Sorry. Vaccines save lives, and prevent the spread of disease.

    Starting in 1917, the Spanish flu pandemic killed 33 million people in 18 months. As many people as World War I did in several years.

    The Bubonic Plague during the 13th century killed more people in Europe in 3 years than WWII did in 6 years

    At one time, smallpox killed a quarter of a million people... each year. Today it has been eradicated.

    Forget a nuclear war, humanity could be wiped out by a virus or superbug. By vaccinating your child, you not only spare him from an early death but, due to a phenomenon known as “herd immunity”, you are also sparing everyone he comes in contact with from the same fate.
    Each of the examples you cite deal with social emergencies, each highly unusual. Flu pandemics are the exception, not the norm. Smallpox is definitely an unusual occurrence, and I'm pretty sure bubonic plague is, too ...

    Because you can crush something with a sledgehammer, doesn't mean that you ALWAYS must. We have nuclear weapons. Every time a war breaks out, would we be wise to launch nukes at each emerging enemy ?

    Hardly.

    The more we wipe out bacteria and viruses that happen not to be entirely benign, the worse our resistance to them will be, if a re-emergence occurs. Our healthcare systems have become over-reliant on antibiotics ... to the point where they may one day become useless. Combine that with a future pandemic, and, thanks to an over-indulgence of dependence on medicine beforehand, where will we stand if one hits us again ?
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    Each of the examples you cite deal with social emergencies, each highly unusual. Flu pandemics are the exception, not the norm. Smallpox is definitely an unusual occurrence, and I'm pretty sure bubonic plague is, too ...

    Because you can crush something with a sledgehammer, doesn't mean that you ALWAYS must. We have nuclear weapons. Every time a war breaks out, would we be wise to launch nukes at each emerging enemy ?

    Hardly.

    The more we wipe out bacteria and viruses that happen not to be entirely benign, the worse our resistance to them will be, if a re-emergence occurs. Our healthcare systems have become over-reliant on antibiotics ... to the point where they may one day become useless. Combine that with a future pandemic, and, thanks to an over-indulgence of dependence on medicine beforehand, where will we stand if one hits us again ?

    You are inappropriately conflating issues: https://www.who.int/features/qa/vacc...resistance/en/

    Why is vaccination important for addressing antibiotic resistance?

    Online Q&A
    November 2016


    Q: Why is vaccination important for addressing antibiotic resistance?
    A: Vaccines can help limit the spread of antibiotic resistance.
    The global increase in disease caused by drug-resistant bacteria, due to overuse and misuse of antibiotics, is a major public health concern. It is more difficult and costly to treat antibiotic-resistant infections and people do not always recover.
    Vaccinating humans and animals is a very effective way to stop them from getting infected and thereby preventing the need for antibiotics.
    Making better use of existing vaccines and developing new vaccines are important ways to tackle antibiotic resistance and reduce preventable illness and deaths.
    Q: How can existing vaccines have an impact?
    A: Expanding the use of existing vaccines will reduce the use of antibiotics and the development of resistance.
    For example, if every child in the world received a vaccine to protect them from infection with Streptococcus pneumoniae bacteria (which can cause pneumonia, meningitis and middle ear infections), this would prevent an estimated 11 million days of antibiotic use each year.
    Vaccines against viruses, such as the flu, also have a role to play, because people often take antibiotics unnecessarily when they have symptoms such as fever that can be caused by a virus.
    Q: How can new vaccines have an impact?
    A: Developing and using new vaccines to prevent bacterial diseases can further reduce the development of resistance.
    Antibiotics are currently the standard medical intervention for common diseases such as Group A Streptococcus (which causes “strep throat”), for which we do not yet have vaccines.
    We also need vaccines to stop people from catching diseases caused by bacteria that are now frequently antibiotic-resistant. For example, there is an alarming spread of multi-drug resistant tuberculosis (MDR-TB). In 2015, an estimated 480 000 people were infected with MDR-TB.
    Similarly, new vaccines targeting Staphylococcus aureus (which causes skin and soft tissue infections), Klebsiella pneumoniae (which causes pneumonia and infections of the blood stream and urinary tract), Clostridium difficile (which causes diarrhoeal disease), and many others could protect people against diseases that are increasingly difficult to treat.
    Developing new vaccines and getting them used appropriately is lengthy and complex. The scientific community needs to prioritise which new vaccines would have the greatest impact on antibiotic resistance, and promote investment in these.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    You are inappropriately conflating issues: https://www.who.int/features/qa/vacc...resistance/en/
    Interesting and informative. Thank you.

    This does overlook my central concern, though ... that of the approach which society (yours, and mine) seems to be increasingly adopting, namely, the over-deference to authority at the expense of individual choice and freedoms. I also believe, as I've also argued, that there's a institutionalised over-use of remedial medicine at the expense of our ability to naturally cope and deal with illnesses using our immune systems' capabilities ... capabilities which we lose over time by overly-sanitising our environment.

    I've lived a full and healthy existence despite never, once, having been inoculated / immunised against anything at all. I say there's nothing remotely remarkable about that.
    Last edited by Drummond; 04-26-2019 at 09:38 PM.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    Interesting and informative. Thank you.

    This does overlook my central concern, though ... that of the approach which society (yours, and mine) seems to be increasingly adopting, namely, the over-deference to authority at the expense of individual choice and freedoms. I also believe, as I've also argued, that there's a institutionalised over-use of remedial medicine at the expense of our ability to naturally cope and deal with illnesses using our immune systems' capabilities ... capabilities which we lose over time by overly-sanitising our environment.

    I've lived a full and healthy existence despite never, once, having been inoculated / immunised against anything at all. I say there's nothing remotely remarkable about that.
    I think you are projecting your good health and likely good genes on society as a whole.

    Measles were eliminated from the US over a decade ago, now they are back with a vengeance in certain pockets-affluent pockets in general, due to a mix of people who are about as half-smart as they think or they believed they could avoid any possible side effects for 'their precious ones,' along with others similarly selfish/ignorant to remove the herd immunity needed to protect those whose age or fragility of health precluded vaccination against the disease. There are also those few that the immunizations do not work-they too are vulnerable.

    As I discussed earlier with Darin and @Gunny, it shouldn't be necessary to make the vaccines compulsory, but with the ignorance and selfishness that now makes up our society, it seems we're left without choice. The whole is more important than one. As Gunny said, that used to be just known as civic pride or duty.

    It's the vast healthy majority that is 'the herd' that provides the immunity for those small numbers that need either more time or just the chance to avoid another debilitating illness. The herd numbers cannot fall below 95% for measles because of how easily it spreads; 80-85% for polio which is more difficult to transmit.

    https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/herd-immunity/


    https://www.vaccinestoday.eu/stories...herd-immunity/


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    Each of the examples you cite deal with social emergencies, each highly unusual. Flu pandemics are the exception, not the norm. Smallpox is definitely an unusual occurrence, and I'm pretty sure bubonic plague is, too ...

    Because you can crush something with a sledgehammer, doesn't mean that you ALWAYS must. We have nuclear weapons. Every time a war breaks out, would we be wise to launch nukes at each emerging enemy ?

    Hardly.

    The more we wipe out bacteria and viruses that happen not to be entirely benign, the worse our resistance to them will be, if a re-emergence occurs. Our healthcare systems have become over-reliant on antibiotics ... to the point where they may one day become useless. Combine that with a future pandemic, and, thanks to an over-indulgence of dependence on medicine beforehand, where will we stand if one hits us again ?
    OMG each of those things is rare BECAUSE OF MASS VACCINATIONS, and yes that means 99% of people get vaccinated.

    You just argued FOR vaccinations, not against them.

    And most certainly you do not have the right to endanger my family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KarlMarx View Post
    Some things go beyond individual rights

    Being vaccinated is one of them

    Sorry. Vaccines save lives, and prevent the spread of disease.

    Starting in 1917, the Spanish flu pandemic killed 33 million people in 18 months. As many people as World War I did in several years.

    The Bubonic Plague during the 13th century killed more people in Europe in 3 years than WWII did in 6 years

    At one time, smallpox killed a quarter of a million people... each year. Today it has been eradicated.

    Forget a nuclear war, humanity could be wiped out by a virus or superbug. By vaccinating your child, you not only spare him from an early death but, due to a phenomenon known as “herd immunity”, you are also sparing everyone he comes in contact with from the same fate.
    Spanish flu in WWI affected tens of thousands of soldiers on both sides, then spread to other nations when those lads went home.
    I have lost my mind. If found, please give it a snack and return it?

    "I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same of others"...John Wayne in "The Shootist"

    A Deplorable!

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    Default Choose To Vaccinate

    It comes down to this

    Do I have the right to endanger the public well being? That is, do I have the right to act in such a way that endangers the life, property, and safety of others? The answer is clearly “no” and there are many laws on the books that protect us from such actions.

    For instance, I have the right to private property, but I do not have the right to build a bonfire on my property during a severe drought when there is a good chance I can start a wildfire that will burn down my neighbor’s house

    I have the right to free speech but I do not have the right to shout “FIRE!!” in a crowded theater.

    I see vaccinations as one of these. By not being vaccinated against diseases like the measles (which can be fatal to adults), I am acting in such a way that endangers the life, or property, or safety of my neighbor and the public in general.



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    How do you tell a Communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin. - Ronald Reagan

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    Let's put it all down in 'brass tacks'.

    I am no doctor but learned over the years that each individual has certain levels of immunity.
    I do not get "Flu", but the person next to me might be susceptible to all strains.

    So if it is wise to inoculate kids exposed to others that might carry a certain 'bug',
    what is the harm? Kids at an early age need to be vaccinated. They might get a
    mild reaction, but that is the parents and doctors responsibility to monitor.
    It is NOT the public opinion to monitor any of that.
    I have lost my mind. If found, please give it a snack and return it?

    "I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same of others"...John Wayne in "The Shootist"

    A Deplorable!

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