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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Good grief.

    On a related note I recently watched an amazing short video about a man who is still using an iron lung after contracting polio as a child, he was able to become a successful lawyer. He’s also concerned about polio resurfacing because of ignorant parents.

    [/COLOR]
    Whenever I hear about polio it makes me instantly think of President Roosevelt ultimately ending up in a wheelchair and unable to walk from polio. And I remember when I was a kid seeing a few movies and documentaries about kids living in iron lungs, using a mirror to look at the person next to them or above/below. Dang, it looked rough. Even if paralyzed and in a wheelchair, you can kinda get around. I'm sure things are different now, but like I said - dang!

    Some of them can be deadly or extremely life altering. I'm honestly no expert on how easily each and every disease travels or gets transmitted to others. I'm sure many are similar and many different. Then you have all different kinds of diseases/infections or what not in the 3rd world countries. I have no idea other than - I don't want to take the slightest chance ever if I can end up in on of those ways.

    The earlier Roosevelt and then later in life



    And the iron lungs I recall - when you didn't have the vaccination - or I guess if you never took the vaccination

    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    Whenever I hear about polio it makes me instantly think of President Roosevelt ultimately ending up in a wheelchair and unable to walk from polio. And I remember when I was a kid seeing a few movies and documentaries about kids living in iron lungs, using a mirror to look at the person next to them or above/below. Dang, it looked rough. Even if paralyzed and in a wheelchair, you can kinda get around. I'm sure things are different now, but like I said - dang!

    Some of them can be deadly or extremely life altering. I'm honestly no expert on how easily each and every disease travels or gets transmitted to others. I'm sure many are similar and many different. Then you have all different kinds of diseases/infections or what not in the 3rd world countries. I have no idea other than - I don't want to take the slightest chance ever if I can end up in on of those ways.

    The earlier Roosevelt and then later in life



    And the iron lungs I recall - when you didn't have the vaccination - or I guess if you never took the vaccination

    Jim, when FDR contracted polio, he was forever in wheelchair. That first photo you have is of Teddy Roosevelt. Here's a pic of FDR before polio:



    Teddy had been a sickly child, but not polio. He worked like crazy to make his lungs stronger, seems like he did ok with that, considering the Rough Riders.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    All I knew for sure was that he was standing and walking before, and then the wheelchair days. I never followed him really and only know from what I read, so I had went to Google images and just looked around until I saw one of him standing and one in the chair.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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  5. #34
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    In other words, if that wasn't clear (cause it isn't when I read it back!), I typed in Roosevelt in the search bar and like a dummy just grabbed at the 2 pics. And regardless, honestly, I really wouldn't know what either one of them looked like much in younger years!! I remember mostly later years and what there is when you do simple research and the public school books we used. Not a good excuse though.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    All very well written and stated.

    You KNOW I'm concerned about individual rights, and in more ways than just this subject, that's for sure! But even in this case, citizens do have the right to NOT get these shots. But since there have been various kinds of outbreaks at schools and other places over the decades, they implement THEIR requirements to attend their particular school, or some sporting teams and events as pointed out. That's another area where the physical interaction between people is a lot more than just being in the same classroom. And in many cases, getting hit with their sweat and even saliva at times (don't ask) LOL. And then if a kid gets a cold at a school, you will have some parents that will cry bloody murder. And do NOT let it be a child with a peanut allergy, for example. Their also very susceptible and can have bad symptoms from just being next to someone eating a peanut butter sandwich. Imagine that kid ends up in the hospital, or worse, the school has to have him brought there, and then Mom gets a call and gets frantic. Bloody murder again! And then out comes the brigades and the come changes. So you can only imagine my next few sentences if it were to next be about a school having someone brought to the hospital somehow because they know the kid is sick from measles, mumps, chickenpox or any other such infectious diseases! Bloody murder won't even be enough for some. ALL the schools fault, of course.

    I'm glad you're happy and healthy after many years!! And a perfect attendance? I had trouble doing that for a week!! LOL

    As to the last part - were you ever 100% for sure exposed into a room at school or otherwise where someone was there with the measles, chickenpox or one of the other bad ones?

    Each state here has different laws on specifically what vaccines you need for school. On average across it's like 5 of them, but here are the main they check for. I'm curious if ever exposed to any? Or if you ever saw many outbreaks of any of them in the UK?

    Hepatitis B
    Diptheria and Tetanus in one shot
    Influenza type B
    PCV
    IPV (polio)
    (Ct is the only state that actually mandates the Flu shot for school)
    Measles, Mumps & Rubella in one shot
    Chickenpox
    Hepatitis A

    That's the list, but each state is different as to which is a requirement. Common, which I had, was the Hep B, Diptheria/Tetanus, IPV, MMR & Chickenpox. ---- I was near, or in or around definitely Chickenpox, Flu many times - and right now there is a major issue with measles going around - and I'm sure glad I'm not near it!!
    I can't help but see that there are two sides to this argument. You make a good case.

    It's all to the good, of course, that medicine has known the advances it has ... that we can come so close to stamping out the prevalence of measles, or more serious conditions such as typhoid or tuberculosis. I'm of the opinion, though, that the more we fight such diseases and take them out of the environment, the more susceptible we make ourselves to them if they ever re-emerge. People develop their own healthy immune systems, not by having no diseases to ever combat, but by having active immune systems that are primed to be resistant to the very concoctions of germs and viruses we fear being prey to.

    I get colds, as do other people, but not at all often. I've had flu precisely once in my life, around 20 years ago. I've never had measles, even though my own school once had a bad outbreak of it when I was in senior school. My school attendance was always devoid of time off for illness. I've only ever been absent from work once from illness .. from the flu I mentioned earlier (the one other time I was away was through recovering from being knocked down by a bus ... !).

    I firmly believe that, if left alone, unaided by outside help, our immune systems would cope well with conditions we've become conditioned to fear. Certainly, mine does, and these days I'm no youngster ! I don't believe there's anything exceptional about me.
    Last edited by Drummond; 04-26-2019 at 08:06 PM.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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  9. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    All I knew for sure was that he was standing and walking before, and then the wheelchair days. I never followed him really and only know from what I read, so I had went to Google images and just looked around until I saw one of him standing and one in the chair.
    He had a lot of "gimmicks" to not be seen in his wheelchair or in a weakened light. The media was a willing accomplice.

    By today's standard, some of his iron riggings sound barbaric He had straps and steel (I believe actually iron) braces. I don't remember where I read that.

    I did know some people who had polio when I was a kid. They were pretty jacked up. I sure wouldn't want to get it. For the most part though we were all vaccinated against polio and smallpox. Then to go overseas at age 2 there were 2 typhoid shots, 2 cholera shots, tetanus shot, plague, tine test (how they used to test for TB) straight-up penicillin. I was good to freakin' go from an early age
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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  11. #37
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    Default Choose To Vaccinate

    Some things go beyond individual rights

    Being vaccinated is one of them

    Sorry. Vaccines save lives, and prevent the spread of disease.

    Starting in 1917, the Spanish flu pandemic killed 33 million people in 18 months. As many people as World War I did in several years.

    The Bubonic Plague during the 13th century killed more people in Europe in 3 years than WWII did in 6 years

    At one time, smallpox killed a quarter of a million people... each year. Today it has been eradicated.

    Forget a nuclear war, humanity could be wiped out by a virus or superbug. By vaccinating your child, you not only spare him from an early death but, due to a phenomenon known as “herd immunity”, you are also sparing everyone he comes in contact with from the same fate.
    How do you tell a Communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin. - Ronald Reagan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Good grief.

    On a related note I recently watched an amazing short video about a man who is still using an iron lung after contracting polio as a child, he was able to become a successful lawyer. He’s also concerned about polio resurfacing because of ignorant parents.

    [/COLOR]


    Actually, I thought it might be Pete who'd post something of this type. That a Leftie would, though ... that was inevitable.

    I'm no knocking your sincerity of feeling - not as such, anyway. But of this, I was always certain ... adherents of Left-wing thinking will care a great deal about the promotion of any psychology that results in dependence upon the State, or of otherwise adopting subservience to an authority that'll 'always know better', therefore, must be obeyed to the cost of individual choice.

    Creatures of the Left will be in their element if they can get the population they administer to forever bend to their judgments and decrees. Illustrations of 'how much better off we all are, if only we can be dealt with as an obedient, quiescent mass', not as individuals with the scope to exercise contrary choice .. ahh ... what more could you wish for, Noir ?
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by KarlMarx View Post
    Some things go beyond individual rights

    Being vaccinated is one of them

    Sorry. Vaccines save lives, and prevent the spread of disease.

    Starting in 1917, the Spanish flu pandemic killed 33 million people in 18 months. As many people as World War I did in several years.

    The Bubonic Plague during the 13th century killed more people in Europe in 3 years than WWII did in 6 years

    At one time, smallpox killed a quarter of a million people... each year. Today it has been eradicated.

    Forget a nuclear war, humanity could be wiped out by a virus or superbug. By vaccinating your child, you not only spare him from an early death but, due to a phenomenon known as “herd immunity”, you are also sparing everyone he comes in contact with from the same fate.
    Each of the examples you cite deal with social emergencies, each highly unusual. Flu pandemics are the exception, not the norm. Smallpox is definitely an unusual occurrence, and I'm pretty sure bubonic plague is, too ...

    Because you can crush something with a sledgehammer, doesn't mean that you ALWAYS must. We have nuclear weapons. Every time a war breaks out, would we be wise to launch nukes at each emerging enemy ?

    Hardly.

    The more we wipe out bacteria and viruses that happen not to be entirely benign, the worse our resistance to them will be, if a re-emergence occurs. Our healthcare systems have become over-reliant on antibiotics ... to the point where they may one day become useless. Combine that with a future pandemic, and, thanks to an over-indulgence of dependence on medicine beforehand, where will we stand if one hits us again ?
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    Each of the examples you cite deal with social emergencies, each highly unusual. Flu pandemics are the exception, not the norm. Smallpox is definitely an unusual occurrence, and I'm pretty sure bubonic plague is, too ...

    Because you can crush something with a sledgehammer, doesn't mean that you ALWAYS must. We have nuclear weapons. Every time a war breaks out, would we be wise to launch nukes at each emerging enemy ?

    Hardly.

    The more we wipe out bacteria and viruses that happen not to be entirely benign, the worse our resistance to them will be, if a re-emergence occurs. Our healthcare systems have become over-reliant on antibiotics ... to the point where they may one day become useless. Combine that with a future pandemic, and, thanks to an over-indulgence of dependence on medicine beforehand, where will we stand if one hits us again ?

    You are inappropriately conflating issues: https://www.who.int/features/qa/vacc...resistance/en/

    Why is vaccination important for addressing antibiotic resistance?

    Online Q&A
    November 2016


    Q: Why is vaccination important for addressing antibiotic resistance?
    A: Vaccines can help limit the spread of antibiotic resistance.
    The global increase in disease caused by drug-resistant bacteria, due to overuse and misuse of antibiotics, is a major public health concern. It is more difficult and costly to treat antibiotic-resistant infections and people do not always recover.
    Vaccinating humans and animals is a very effective way to stop them from getting infected and thereby preventing the need for antibiotics.
    Making better use of existing vaccines and developing new vaccines are important ways to tackle antibiotic resistance and reduce preventable illness and deaths.
    Q: How can existing vaccines have an impact?
    A: Expanding the use of existing vaccines will reduce the use of antibiotics and the development of resistance.
    For example, if every child in the world received a vaccine to protect them from infection with Streptococcus pneumoniae bacteria (which can cause pneumonia, meningitis and middle ear infections), this would prevent an estimated 11 million days of antibiotic use each year.
    Vaccines against viruses, such as the flu, also have a role to play, because people often take antibiotics unnecessarily when they have symptoms such as fever that can be caused by a virus.
    Q: How can new vaccines have an impact?
    A: Developing and using new vaccines to prevent bacterial diseases can further reduce the development of resistance.
    Antibiotics are currently the standard medical intervention for common diseases such as Group A Streptococcus (which causes “strep throat”), for which we do not yet have vaccines.
    We also need vaccines to stop people from catching diseases caused by bacteria that are now frequently antibiotic-resistant. For example, there is an alarming spread of multi-drug resistant tuberculosis (MDR-TB). In 2015, an estimated 480 000 people were infected with MDR-TB.
    Similarly, new vaccines targeting Staphylococcus aureus (which causes skin and soft tissue infections), Klebsiella pneumoniae (which causes pneumonia and infections of the blood stream and urinary tract), Clostridium difficile (which causes diarrhoeal disease), and many others could protect people against diseases that are increasingly difficult to treat.
    Developing new vaccines and getting them used appropriately is lengthy and complex. The scientific community needs to prioritise which new vaccines would have the greatest impact on antibiotic resistance, and promote investment in these.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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  19. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    You are inappropriately conflating issues: https://www.who.int/features/qa/vacc...resistance/en/
    Interesting and informative. Thank you.

    This does overlook my central concern, though ... that of the approach which society (yours, and mine) seems to be increasingly adopting, namely, the over-deference to authority at the expense of individual choice and freedoms. I also believe, as I've also argued, that there's a institutionalised over-use of remedial medicine at the expense of our ability to naturally cope and deal with illnesses using our immune systems' capabilities ... capabilities which we lose over time by overly-sanitising our environment.

    I've lived a full and healthy existence despite never, once, having been inoculated / immunised against anything at all. I say there's nothing remotely remarkable about that.
    Last edited by Drummond; 04-26-2019 at 09:38 PM.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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  21. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    Interesting and informative. Thank you.

    This does overlook my central concern, though ... that of the approach which society (yours, and mine) seems to be increasingly adopting, namely, the over-deference to authority at the expense of individual choice and freedoms. I also believe, as I've also argued, that there's a institutionalised over-use of remedial medicine at the expense of our ability to naturally cope and deal with illnesses using our immune systems' capabilities ... capabilities which we lose over time by overly-sanitising our environment.

    I've lived a full and healthy existence despite never, once, having been inoculated / immunised against anything at all. I say there's nothing remotely remarkable about that.
    I think you are projecting your good health and likely good genes on society as a whole.

    Measles were eliminated from the US over a decade ago, now they are back with a vengeance in certain pockets-affluent pockets in general, due to a mix of people who are about as half-smart as they think or they believed they could avoid any possible side effects for 'their precious ones,' along with others similarly selfish/ignorant to remove the herd immunity needed to protect those whose age or fragility of health precluded vaccination against the disease. There are also those few that the immunizations do not work-they too are vulnerable.

    As I discussed earlier with Darin and @Gunny, it shouldn't be necessary to make the vaccines compulsory, but with the ignorance and selfishness that now makes up our society, it seems we're left without choice. The whole is more important than one. As Gunny said, that used to be just known as civic pride or duty.

    It's the vast healthy majority that is 'the herd' that provides the immunity for those small numbers that need either more time or just the chance to avoid another debilitating illness. The herd numbers cannot fall below 95% for measles because of how easily it spreads; 80-85% for polio which is more difficult to transmit.

    https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/herd-immunity/


    https://www.vaccinestoday.eu/stories...herd-immunity/


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    I truly think that most of the idiots really haven't a clue to how dangerous diseases such as measles, polio, mumps, rubella, tetanus can be. In the US one hasn't seen these in many years in most if any areas.

    For those of us over 40, our parents who did see the ravages of these disease, would not hesitate for a nanosecond to protect us.

    https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.html

    https://www.cdc.gov/rubella/about/complications.html

    https://www.cdc.gov/mumps/about/complications.html

    https://www.cdc.gov/chickenpox/about/complications.html

    https://www.cdc.gov/tetanus/about/sy...lications.html

    https://www.cdc.gov/polio/index.htm

    Some of these, such as chicken pox, aren't likely to cause grave dangers to healthy children, though in adults the form of shingles is not a laughing matter. Even with children though, the dangers lie with the most vulnerable, those with weak immune systems and infants.
    Last edited by Kathianne; 04-26-2019 at 11:20 PM.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    Quote Originally Posted by KarlMarx View Post
    Some things go beyond individual rights

    Being vaccinated is one of them

    Sorry. Vaccines save lives, and prevent the spread of disease.

    Starting in 1917, the Spanish flu pandemic killed 33 million people in 18 months. As many people as World War I did in several years.

    The Bubonic Plague during the 13th century killed more people in Europe in 3 years than WWII did in 6 years

    At one time, smallpox killed a quarter of a million people... each year. Today it has been eradicated.

    Forget a nuclear war, humanity could be wiped out by a virus or superbug. By vaccinating your child, you not only spare him from an early death but, due to a phenomenon known as “herd immunity”, you are also sparing everyone he comes in contact with from the same fate.
    Spanish flu in WWI affected tens of thousands of soldiers on both sides, then spread to other nations when those lads went home.
    I have lost my mind. If found, please give it a snack and return it?

    "I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same of others"...John Wayne in "The Shootist"

    A Deplorable!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post


    Actually, I thought it might be Pete who'd post something of this type. That a Leftie would, though ... that was inevitable.

    I'm no knocking your sincerity of feeling - not as such, anyway. But of this, I was always certain ... adherents of Left-wing thinking will care a great deal about the promotion of any psychology that results in dependence upon the State, or of otherwise adopting subservience to an authority that'll 'always know better', therefore, must be obeyed to the cost of individual choice.

    Creatures of the Left will be in their element if they can get the population they administer to forever bend to their judgments and decrees. Illustrations of 'how much better off we all are, if only we can be dealt with as an obedient, quiescent mass', not as individuals with the scope to exercise contrary choice .. ahh ... what more could you wish for, Noir ?
    Oh yeah because look at all the other “Lefties” in the thread
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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