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  1. #46
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    none of that is talking about new information
    except that last quote that says you don't need new information.

    "And of course animals that have a larval stage need 2 or 3 "complete" genomes for different phases of their lives."


    the simple creatures we came from and are found FAR EARLIER in the fossil record are MORE complex with 2 or 3 more genomes than we advanced creatures have, sooo that's "of course " evidence FOR evolution?! ....from the simple to the complex??


    the doublethink here is piling up

    Look before the genone projects evolutionary scientist where SURE that the "lower " creatures would have fewer genes than the "higher" ones. it was to be another EVIDENCE for evolution.

    but they were "shocked" "surprised" etc to find more genes in some very "simple" creatures. less in "modern'. And again "shocked" "surprised" to find the same numbers and kinds of genes across lines of animals they never imagined would have similar genome properties or number counts.

    but is that failed prediction consdiered a strike against the theory? what? of course not!

    Just as the science went against Darwin's prediction that the cell would be found to be a "simple" structure, a glob like thing.

    failed prediction

    and evolutionary scientist expected to find useless parts of genes and thought they found them and used them as evidence for evolution. But now know better since after observational science work it seems there are no useless genes.

    another failed prediction
    but they say again, that it doesn't mater, It's just evolved somehow to use everything.

    so again with each new discovery that goes AGAINST evolutionary PREDICTIONS the evolutionary story just changes to shoe horn in the new data. make up a NEW STORY.

    So now the evolutionary scientist foundational prediction that a creatures do randomly by environmental pressures do mutate NEW information in the genes to develop a wing, a liver, a new muscle, a fingernail, an eye, a tongue, photosynthesis, water resistant skin, camouflage, etc etc. THAT DOESN"T HAPPEN like they predicted.... or at all.... except in the dim unseen past we're sure.... but it doesn't matter if it looks impossible today.
    The BELIEF that it's It's still evolved somekindaway is not doubted.

    it appears unfalsifiable
    Last edited by revelarts; 02-27-2015 at 12:25 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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  3. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    none of that is talking about new information
    Either you didn't read the abstracts or can't comprehend them or you have some non traditional definition of information.

    I don't understand any of the gibberish ramblings of the rest of your post

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    Pete, your pattern is to not-understand ANYTHING that counters your ideology.
    “… the greatest detractor from high performance is fear: fear that you are not prepared, fear that you are in over your head, fear that you are not worthy, and ultimately, fear of failure. If you can eliminate that fear—not through arrogance or just wishing difficulties away, but through hard work and preparation—you will put yourself in an incredibly powerful position to take on the challenges you face" - Pete Carroll.

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  6. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmp View Post
    Pete, your pattern is to not-understand ANYTHING that counters your ideology.
    I think I've responded pretty consistently and intelligibly. What is happening is that I'm starting to respond with sources you guys clearly aren't reading and then you devolve into petty trolling and ramblings of completely irrelevant side topics. It's clear you have nothing left to add but the display of your unfathomable stubbornness.
    Last edited by pete311; 02-27-2015 at 03:14 PM.

  7. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete311 View Post
    Either you didn't read the abstracts or can't comprehend them or you have some non traditional definition of information.
    I don't understand any of the gibberish ramblings of the rest of your post
    look my writing is much simpler and clearer than the double-speak of your links and quotes.
    And frankly some of the more technical info takes time to digest and understand but let take a look.

    Quote Originally Posted by pete
    Preservation of duplicate genes by complementary, degenerative mutations.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1460548/
    The probability of duplicate gene preservation by subfunctionalization.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10629003
    Ohno's dilemma: Evolution of new genes under continuous selection
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2040452/
    Proof and evolutionary analysis of ancient genome duplication in the yeastSaccharomyces cerevisiae
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2040452/
    OK, I asked for experimental examples of NEW information being added to genes.
    what you post is
    duplicate genes, duplicate gene preservation, etcc.

    And they all are --and especially the last 2--- are talking about the problems, and "probability" of this being "the" way evolution happened.

    They do not SHOW new information in the genes. They say maybe it happen this way IN SPITE OF of this problem, that problem and this other factor that would hinder it.

    they say genes duplicate and so now 1 is "useless" and has the "chance" to self edit by random+envirov pressure and every blue moon it "helps" and somehow some become dominant over the original. That's a lot of lucky incidents and it's just a STORY it's not an example. the experiments show that genes do NOT alter randomly to create new genetic information or functions.

    No new information. Same as a simple child's calculator that only does + and - doesn't some how evolve into a calculator that does scientific equations, because it has extra space on the circuit board to self edit randomly and it's feeling the pressure of being in a house with college students. therefore the information to calculate more arises.
    the calculator and the manufacturing plant are set up to make one or the other by design.

    And there are scientist that point this out,
    and not only that but the fact that small changes in the gene ..as elsewhere... often end up non-functional and discarded or likely harmful.

    for instance it's my understanding that the golbin gene -part of the Hemoglobin and others- is very complex (like all) and has specific functions to deal with iron and oxygen in very constrained ways. small edits or stray duplicates have nothing to transform into to make the handling BETTER or more efficient. Small changes only cause problems.
    Last edited by revelarts; 02-27-2015 at 11:59 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  8. #51
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    here's an example of how evolutionary science defends it self.
    (all emphasis in quote are mine)

    Is Evolution True? Laying Out the Logic

    Ann Gauger <abbr class="date" title="2014-12-05T03:32:50-08:00">December 5, 2014 </abbr>

    Monday we published a paper in the journal BIO-Complexity demonstrating that enzymes can't evolve genuinely new functions by unguided means. We argue that design by a very sophisticated intelligent agent is the best explanation for their origin. I want to take some time to lay out our argument against Darwinian evolution and for intelligent design. It's important, because it reveals the logical fallacy in most evolutionary thinking.

    Just to give an example of the thinking of ID critics, here is a passage from one of the references in our paper (Kherhonsky et al. (2006) Enzyme promiscuity: Evolutionary and mechanistic aspects. Current Opinion in Chemical Biology 10:498-508):
    "An oft-forgotten essence of Darwinian processes is that they occur gradually, while maintaining organism fitness throughout. Consequently, a reasonable assumption is that, ever since the emergence of the primordial living forms, very little novelty has evolved at the molecular level. Rather, existing genes were modified, or tinkered with', to generate new protein structures and functions that are related to those of their ancestors. Unlike 'out of the blue' scenarios advocated by the 'intelligent design' school, 'tinkering' scenarios depend on the availability of evolutionary starting points. The hypothesis that the broad specificity, or promiscuous functions, of existing enzymes provide these starting points was first formalized by Jensen in a review that has inspired many. Jensen proposed that, in contrast to modern enzymes, primitive enzymes possessed very broad specificities. This catalytic versatility enabled fewer enzymes to perform the multitude of functions that was necessary to maintain ancestral organisms. Duplication of genes and divergence led to specialized genes and increased metabolic efficiency. Since Jensen, the structures of >30,000 proteins, and the sequences of hundreds of thousands, have taught us that these processes led to the creation of enzyme families and superfamilies. The vestiges of these divergence processes are the scaffold and active site architecture shared by all family members [6]."
    To summarize, the key points of that evolutionary argument are:

    1. Evolution is true. That is, enzymes have evolved new functions by a process of random mutation and natural selection.
    2. Modern enzymes can't evolve genuinely new functions by random mutation and natural selection but can only tinker with existing functions.
    3. Therefore, ancient enzymes must have been different, capable of carrying out a broad range of enzyme activities.
    4. Those enzymes underwent duplication and diverged from one another, becoming specialized.
    5. How do we know this happened? Because we now see a broad array of specialized enzymes. Evolution is the explanation.


    This begs the question of whether evolution is true. It is a circular argument unsubstantiated by the evidence and unfalsifiable. No one can know what ancient enzymes actually looked like, and whether they really had such broad catalytic specificities.

    In contrast, our argument is as follows:

    1. Is evolution true? Test case: Do enzymes evolve by a process of natural selection and random mutation?
    2. Modern enzymes are the only thing we can test.
    3. No one knows if ancient enzymes were different. They are lost in the deep past, so claims with regard to their promiscuity or ability to evolve are hypothetical and unfalsifiable.
    4. Modern enzymes can't evolve new functions, based on our own experiments.
    5. We haven't tested the universe of modern enzymes, so our result is qualified, but the nine most similar enzymes did not change function.
    6. Our estimate for the likely waiting time for an enzyme to evolve a new function is at least 1015 years.
    7. Therefore evolution of enzymes is likely to be impossible.
    8. Given the sophistication of enzymes and the way they work together, intelligent design is the best explanation for the origin and current diversity of modern enzymes.


    You can read the argument in more detail in our paper.
    Notice both arguments agree that modern enzymes can't evolve genuinely new functions. The difference is in the conclusion reached. ......Any hypothesis about the deep past is accepted if it allows an evolutionary explanation for current diversity, and avoids problems with difficult facts. As a consequence, papers on the origin of life, protein evolution, the origin of animal form, and human origins are full of speculation masked as supporting argument, or even as statements of fact.

    But the problem remains. If you start with the assumption that evolution is true, and view all evidence through those glasses, you won't even notice that your argument chases its tail....
    http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/12..._tr091731.html
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  9. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    here's an example of how evolutionary science defends it self.
    (all emphasis in quote are mine)
    I have never heard anyone who understands evolution make the claim that enzymes evolve. Anyone who does, possesses a failure in understanding of what the theory of evolution is about, and what enzymes are.

    I have seen creationists intentionally misrepresent the assertions of evolutionary scientists. They cultivate a deep and abiding dis-understanding of evolution.
    "... whenever any number of men, calling themselves a government, do anything to another man, or to his property, which they had no right to do as individuals, they thereby declare themselves trespassers, robbers, or murderers, according to the nature of their acts." - Lysander Spooner

  10. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by LOki View Post
    I have never heard anyone who understands evolution make the claim that enzymes evolve. Anyone who does, possesses a failure in understanding of what the theory of evolution is about, and what enzymes are.

    I have seen creationists intentionally misrepresent the assertions of evolutionary scientists. They cultivate a deep and abiding dis-understanding of evolution.
    Well I believe the paper on the enzymes and evolution in the above is here.
    http://www.indiana.edu/~lynchlab/PDF...romiscuity.pdf

    here are a few more I papers i found on the role of enzyme evolution by folks that promote evolution.
    Enzyme promiscuity: engine of evolutionary innovation.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25210039

    Enzyme recruitment in evolution of new function.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/791073

    Enzyme Evolution Explained
    http://psb.stanford.edu/psb-online/p...psb00/dean.pdf

    But reread the post itself, it's fairly clear on what it means by evolution of enzymes. it's talking about change in function to allow new activity i believe. those responding to the ID people seem to use the term and concept as well.

    ...Jensen proposed that, in contrast to modern enzymes, primitive enzymes possessed very broad specificities. This catalytic versatility enabled fewer enzymes to perform the multitude of functions that was necessary to maintain ancestral organisms. Duplication of genes and divergence led to specialized genes and increased metabolic efficiency. Since Jensen, the structures of >30,000 proteins, and the sequences of hundreds of thousands, have taught us that these processes led to the creation of enzyme families and superfamilies. The vestiges of these divergence processes are the scaffold and active site architecture shared by all family members [6]....
    So i'm not sure what you mean. are you saying that those kind of imagined changes they are asserting are NOT real evolution? that the word for it is wrong? Are you saying since it's so far at the beginning stages that it's not really part of the evolution story?
    There's nothing disingenuous going on here so I don't see what you mean.
    Last edited by revelarts; 02-28-2015 at 12:33 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  11. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutime View Post
    For Pete's sake. Funny stuff. Did trolls exist 2 billion years ago, and just resurface?
    We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language, for we intend to see that the crucible turns our people out as Americans, of American nationality, and not as dwellers in a polyglot boarding-house; and we have room for but one soul loyalty, and that is loyalty to the American people. ~Theodore Roosevelt~

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyr-Ziu Saxnot View Post
    Same double think loons use the exact same stupidity to justify the global warming scam.
    The world is are up with such mad, raving fooooooools!!!!!
    These idiots want to have their damn cake and eat it too!!!
    Reality proves they are liars, deluded and indeed crazy but then again look at the gullible under educated masses they are manipulating by using this method of insanity and subterfuge!
    All the while stirring up pure righteous contempt and anger from we not so stupid as to believe all that lying tripe!

    If such simple organisms did not change in 2 billion years why and how did other organisms do so??? What got me always was any catalyst they vaguely mentioned to justify the need for change had to be so paramount to its survival that in millions/billions of years the changing entity would have died out. They never explain how the need for change(catalyst) which had to be great allowed for such eons of time and how the entity thus survived if the catalyst was that great.
    Evolution is pure bunk.. Now they recently scream BIG BANG IS WRONG !
    Well hell, I knew that back in 1967 at age 13.....
    These people espouse theories that they like(serve a political purpose) as if they are solid fact, when they are far from it..--Tyr
    And then the idiots expect their "theories" to be accepted as fact and settled science....

    just cause they said so. lol

  13. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Well I believe the paper on the enzymes and evolution in the above is here.
    http://www.indiana.edu/~lynchlab/PDF...romiscuity.pdf

    here are a few more I papers i found on the role of enzyme evolution by folks that promote evolution.
    Enzyme promiscuity: engine of evolutionary innovation.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25210039

    Enzyme recruitment in evolution of new function.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/791073

    Enzyme Evolution Explained
    http://psb.stanford.edu/psb-online/p...psb00/dean.pdf

    But reread the post itself, it's fairly clear on what it means by evolution of enzymes. it's talking about change in function to allow new activity i believe. those responding to the ID people seem to use the term and concept as well.



    So i'm not sure what you mean. are you saying that those kind of imagined changes they are asserting are NOT real evolution? that the word for it is wrong? Are you saying since it's so far at the beginning stages that it's not really part of the evolution story?
    There's nothing disingenuous going on here so I don't see what you mean.
    Those papers seem to confirm my understanding of enzymes and evolution.

    Enzymes don't evolve. Populations of organisms do.

    The it seems understood that the differentiation and specification discussed is the product of evolutionary processes.

    I don't think it is at all controversial to assert that the differences observed are the result of respective differences in the genetic material of the respective organisms.

    It seems extremely controversial to assert that alterations in the enzymes themselves could give rise to those changes in later generations, as would be expected if enzymes evolved rather than the populations of organisms that express them. It's alterations in population genetics that result in the expression of altered enzymes in those respective populations.

    Considering the well established understanding that alterations in genetic material has been caused naturally without specified direction, it seems far less controversial to assert that the observed differences innthese enzymes, and their observed frequency of expression conform to natural causes, than to assert that those expressions are the result of some specified, but undiscovered and unverifiable design.
    "... whenever any number of men, calling themselves a government, do anything to another man, or to his property, which they had no right to do as individuals, they thereby declare themselves trespassers, robbers, or murderers, according to the nature of their acts." - Lysander Spooner

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