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    Default Many Democrats Won't Stand For Victory In Iraq

    It's very sad to me....That we even have to ask this question of Why...
    And what's even sadder........is we know the reason Why....


    By Lorie Byrd
    Friday, January 26, 2007

    Send an email to Lorie Byrd


    Several months ago I asked what the Iraq war effort might look like today if those on the left and in the media had conducted themselves differently. I said that when the Iraqi public, including the terrorists there, are given the impression that U.S. politicians have lost the will to fight, there must be an impact on their behavior. Common sense told me that it could not help but influence their morale and belief in the cause and their likelihood of success, as well as, in the case of the terrorists, their ability to recruit.

    Specifically I asked if it were clear to the Iraqi people that politicians in D.C. were committed to finishing the mission in Iraq, would the attitude of the people there be different? I wondered if politicians and anti-war activists had not accused our own troops of engaging in torture, and worse, would world opinion, and specifically the opinion of the Iraqi people, be different? I expressed my hope that one day that debate, over what that impact might be, would take place.

    It appears to me, after reading some of the testimony given by General Petraeus this week, that such a debate is now underway.

    During Gen. Petraeus’ confirmation hearing testimony, Joe Lieberman asked the general if Senate resolutions condemning the President’s proposed new policy in Iraq “would give the enemy some comfort.” Patraeus said it would, answering, “That’s correct, sir.”

    Hugh Hewitt addressed what it means to “encourage the enemy” saying it “means to increase their will to fight on, and their courage to do so even in the face of the arrival of reinforcements. It also means to increase –substantially—the likelihood of redoubled and retripled efforts on their part to kill American soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines.”

    Hewitt went on to say “Democrats are willing to encourage the enemy if it means hurting George W. Bush. They are willing to disregard the advice of the general they have just sent to do a mission if it serves their political purposes.” That is a pretty bold accusation to make and not one I am eager to embrace, but everything I have seen over the past three years tells me that Hewitt is right and that the behavior did not begin with the current resolution.

    In Tuesday’s State of the Union address, the President’s calls for victory in Iraq were met from the Democrat side of the aisle with intentional silence. Most Democrats would not applaud, much less stand, for victory in Iraq. Over the past months and years, those on the left have gone to great effort to paint the mission in Iraq as “failed,” “doomed” and a “disaster.” They have failed to acknowledge the accomplishments of the U.S. military in Iraq, but have been quick to talk about those in our armed forces as child victims of a failed policy or (worse) as bloodthirsty thugs engaging in torture and terror.

    It is certainly not a pleasant thing to accuse fellow Americans, particularly ones entrusted by the citizenry with the nation’s well being, of playing politics with American lives or of providing moral support to her enemies, but I think it is time to ask some hard questions.

    Why have so many critics of the war spent more time talking about alleged abuses at Gitmo than they have talking about the new freedoms being enjoyed by those in Afghanistan and Iraq as a result of actions taken by the U.S. military?

    Why is it that many war critics seem to believe the U.S. is capable of addressing the conflict and genocide in Darfur, but that they are not capable of achieving victory in Iraq?”

    Why is it that when generals, or more frequently former generals, express a lack of confidence in the President, the Secretary of Defense, or our policy and mission in Iraq, their word is not only accepted without question, but their opinions are treated as absolute fact, but when other generals say that it is still possible to win in Iraq, and that condemnations of the President and his policies encourage the enemy, they are ignored?

    Why, when given a choice between defeat through surrender or the possibility to pursue victory, there are so many so eager to choose the former?

    It is difficult to answer those questions without considering what victory in Iraq would mean.

    Victory in Iraq would not only be a positive development for those in the Middle East with effects being felt around the world, and a huge success for those in the U.S. military, but success in Iraq would be seen as the ultimate success for the Bush presidency. For too many politicians considering the options in Iraq, and the choice between defeat through surrender or pursuit of victory, that is a huge problem.
    http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/L...ictory_in_iraq
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself."
    Tullius Cicero (106-43 BC)

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    I fully agree with the article and I have said the same thing myself in other posts. There are two wars. The war in iraq and the war of the dems against the administration. The dems don't care about the costs in iraq as long as they make the administration look bad.
    When I die I'm sure to go to heaven, cause I spent my time in hell.

    You get more with a kind word and a two by four, than you do with just a kind word.

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    I, for one, am a little perturbed at the right's continued misuse of the word "surrender"

    sur·ren·der [suh-ren-der] –verb (used with object)

    1. to yield (something) to the possession or power of another; deliver up possession of on demand or under duress: to surrender the fort to the enemy; to surrender the stolen goods to the police.


    What democrats are suggesting is that we leave Iraq to the people who actually possess it... and that we do so, not under duress, but because we realize that the shiites and the sunnis of Iraq are bound and determined to spill each other's blood - and ours, if we continue to interject ourselves into the middle of their civil war. There is no doubt that this civil war STARTED because of our boneheaded invasion and conquest of Iraq on false pretense, but the civil war now has a life of its own. I firmly believe that the sects involved will continue to spill each other's blood until they have had a bellyfull... and can no longer stomach the carnage and our presence in their midst does NOTHING toward resolving that equation.

    We could be much more helpful if we pulled our troops out of the mean streets of Iraqi cities and moved them to the borders with Iran and Syria to prevent the rearming and reinforcing of sectarian militias from without.

    Democrats believe that the United States and European, primarily Christian armies cannot unilaterally bring about peace in Iraq absent a strong desire on the part of sunnis and shiites to have peace. The idiotic idea that we could waltz in, wave a magic wand and watch a multicultural jeffersonian democracy spring up on the banks of the Euphrates was doomed for failure from the outset. Let Iraqis determine their own destiny without our meddling. That destiny will undoubtedly begin with some serious bloodletting, but that was bound to happen sooner or later. Saddam and his sunni baathists would have been unable to keep the shiite majority subjegated ad infinitum and there was going to be some payback.


    We aren't surrendering anything. We are leaving the scene of a domestic dispute that Iraqis - and not Americans - need to resolve.

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    :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: I agree with everything you posted there manfrom, plan 'B' would be to flatten the place before leaving though, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roomy View Post
    :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: I agree with everything you posted there manfrom, plan 'B' would be to flatten the place before leaving though, right?
    well ...that would not really go along with the spirit of letting them solve their own problems...but it would be quite a show, I will admit. The thing I loved most about my time in the Navy was blowing stuff up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by manfrommaine View Post
    I, for one, am a little perturbed at the right's continued misuse of the word "surrender"

    sur·ren·der [suh-ren-der] –verb (used with object)

    1. to yield (something) to the possession or power of another; deliver up possession of on demand or under duress: to surrender the fort to the enemy; to surrender the stolen goods to the police.


    What democrats are suggesting is that we leave Iraq to the people who actually possess it... and that we do so, not under duress, but because we realize that the shiites and the sunnis of Iraq are bound and determined to spill each other's blood - and ours, if we continue to interject ourselves into the middle of their civil war. There is no doubt that this civil war STARTED because of our boneheaded invasion and conquest of Iraq on false pretense, but the civil war now has a life of its own. I firmly believe that the sects involved will continue to spill each other's blood until they have had a bellyfull... and can no longer stomach the carnage and our presence in their midst does NOTHING toward resolving that equation.

    We could be much more helpful if we pulled our troops out of the mean streets of Iraqi cities and moved them to the borders with Iran and Syria to prevent the rearming and reinforcing of sectarian militias from without.

    Democrats believe that the United States and European, primarily Christian armies cannot unilaterally bring about peace in Iraq absent a strong desire on the part of sunnis and shiites to have peace. The idiotic idea that we could waltz in, wave a magic wand and watch a multicultural jeffersonian democracy spring up on the banks of the Euphrates was doomed for failure from the outset. Let Iraqis determine their own destiny without our meddling. That destiny will undoubtedly begin with some serious bloodletting, but that was bound to happen sooner or later. Saddam and his sunni baathists would have been unable to keep the shiite majority subjegated ad infinitum and there was going to be some payback.


    We aren't surrendering anything. We are leaving the scene of a domestic dispute that Iraqis - and not Americans - need to resolve.

    How about we partition into a shia, sunni, and kurd section?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSage View Post
    How about we partition into a shia, sunni, and kurd section?

    If the Shites joined forces with the Turds they could probably kick the Sunnies arses and there would be no need for partitions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSage View Post
    How about we partition into a shia, sunni, and kurd section?
    that might very well cause some problem with our NATO buddies, the Turks, but as far as a solution to Iraq, it is a great idea.... there just needs to be some way to make sure that one of the partitions does not end up with ALL the oil.

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    It's NOT a civil war. Neither the sunni's nor the shea are fighting the government. They are fighting each other over sectarian beliefs.The government is fighting them both to keep order and fighting al queda, who is out to bring down the government and is foriegn supported.

    Your right we need to put more troops along the borders and keep the supplies and fresh troops out of iraq. I want to see our troops pulled back for a completely different reason. Let em all fight it out. The more dead muslims the better. At the same time just a general pull out will leave the whole area open to the iranians and al queda. And will give both access to even more oil revenue to support their causes.
    When I die I'm sure to go to heaven, cause I spent my time in hell.

    You get more with a kind word and a two by four, than you do with just a kind word.

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    from dictionary.com:

    civil war
    –noun a war between political factions or regions within the same country.


    it's a civil war. the government is an ineffective bit player in this whole mess. Sunnis and shiites are going to get it on until they can no longer stomach it, and then they will finally figure out some way to split up what still remains standing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaffer View Post
    It's NOT a civil war. Neither the sunni's nor the shea are fighting the government. They are fighting each other over sectarian beliefs.The government is fighting them both to keep order and fighting al queda, who is out to bring down the government and is foriegn supported.

    Your right we need to put more troops along the borders and keep the supplies and fresh troops out of iraq. I want to see our troops pulled back for a completely different reason. Let em all fight it out. The more dead muslims the better. At the same time just a general pull out will leave the whole area open to the iranians and al queda. And will give both access to even more oil revenue to support their causes.

    It is a civil war, gaffer. You're gonna have to give up that little bushbotism. It makes you look dumb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by manfrommaine View Post
    from dictionary.com:

    civil war
    –noun a war between political factions or regions within the same country.


    it's a civil war. the government is an ineffective bit player in this whole mess. Sunnis and shiites are going to get it on until they can no longer stomach it, and then they will finally figure out some way to split up what still remains standing
    A bunch of sunni and shea thugs murdering innocent people and not even fighting each other in open warfare is not a civil war. Once we pull out and they can really get started it will then become one.
    When I die I'm sure to go to heaven, cause I spent my time in hell.

    You get more with a kind word and a two by four, than you do with just a kind word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaffer View Post
    A bunch of sunni and shea thugs murdering innocent people and not even fighting each other in open warfare is not a civil war. Once we pull out and they can really get started it will then become one.
    you'll excuse me if I don't buy your self serving redefinition of the term civil war?

    And even if you were right, why should we sit around and prevent the process from proceeding to its inevitable conclusion - and get nothing but more body bags filled for our efforts? Do you honestly think that another 21500 AMerican men poured down into the quagmire is going to change the dynamic and turn this pile of shit into a bouquet of roses?

    Come on.... you claim to have served. The war is going badly... everyone from the president on down (Cheney excluded, of course, because he is crazy as a loon) says that we are not winning. Do you honestly think that adding 15% more boots onthe ground is going to turn this thing around?

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    Quote Originally Posted by manfrommaine View Post
    you'll excuse me if I don't buy your self serving redefinition of the term civil war?

    And even if you were right, why should we sit around and prevent the process from proceeding to its inevitable conclusion - and get nothing but more body bags filled for our efforts? Do you honestly think that another 21500 AMerican men poured down into the quagmire is going to change the dynamic and turn this pile of shit into a bouquet of roses?

    Come on.... you claim to have served. The war is going badly... everyone from the president on down (Cheney excluded, of course, because he is crazy as a loon) says that we are not winning. Do you honestly think that adding 15% more boots onthe ground is going to turn this thing around?
    Yes I do think that. More boots on the ground allows for taking and holding more areas and for providing more border security, especially along the iranian border. I also believe we are going to get into some sort of conflict with iran in the near future.

    Everyone says we are not winning, but they don't say we are losing. It's at a stalemate right now and more troops allow us to break out of the stalemate. Personally I think even more troops should be sent in, but I'm just armchair quarterbacking here and don't know the actual needs. The milblogs I read and the guys I have talked too who have come home from iraq say things are going well And it will all fall into place as long as they can continue their mission.
    When I die I'm sure to go to heaven, cause I spent my time in hell.

    You get more with a kind word and a two by four, than you do with just a kind word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaffer View Post
    Yes I do think that. More boots on the ground allows for taking and holding more areas and for providing more border security, especially along the iranian border. I also believe we are going to get into some sort of conflict with iran in the near future.

    Everyone says we are not winning, but they don't say we are losing. It's at a stalemate right now and more troops allow us to break out of the stalemate. Personally I think even more troops should be sent in, but I'm just armchair quarterbacking here and don't know the actual needs. The milblogs I read and the guys I have talked too who have come home from iraq say things are going well And it will all fall into place as long as they can continue their mission.

    more boots on the ground is a nice phrase, but only marginally more will not be enough to cause the quantum change in the paradigm. And I like your idea about the border with Iran, but that is NOT, unfortunately, where the 21.5K is destined to go, but rather to the Anbar Province and into Baghdad.

    21K is a drop in the bucket... it is throwing a handful of men at a problem that is bigger than fifty handfuls could take care of.

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