Response Thread From Libertarian Post

[Kathianne]

Some of us had a lengthy discussion, (hasn't ended?):

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthre...310#post731310

In my conclusion I added an editorial point that others may wish to respond to. I'm only copying the salient point and Jim's response to it, those that wish to read the whole thing may link back to the thread:

I've spent more time on this than I really meant to for two reasons:

...

2. Speaking as a member, not staff, I've found the level of discussion on most issues over the past months or even years to have deteriorated to the point that there is really little to see here. It seems to me that most interactions between those that have ideas actually worth addressing have fallen to the level of name calling and other forms of derision. There's little or no depth to those that start off alright, someone will derail by jumping in to bring the tone back to divisiveness rather than discussion. Is there some hidden forum where tallies are being kept for derailed threads?

IMO much of the pitting of a group of posters against an individual has created what we now have. In the most recent case what's disturbing to me is that the 'group' and the 'individual' actually are not philosophically opposed on the big issues, but rather for the details and the presumed and projected differences of the individual by the group.

I've 'known' all the posters for a long time, most since they joined. All are good people from what I 'know' of them. All are capable of discussion, so why not try it?

I tried to keep my interactions in this thread respectful, wasn't hard for me to do, I like Drummond. I don't have to agree with all of his premises however. I don't have to agree or accept what I consider to be projections or 'all knowing statements,' indeed that is the point of discussions/debates, to defend one's own ideas. Sometimes both of us got snarky, but not to the point that the discussion was lost. As I think was demonstrated, he didn't agree with all of what I wrote either.

Jim tried to address this problem not so long ago, several times. He'd like a more interesting board with more posters. This cannot happen when visitors look upon thread after thread of name calling, 5 posts of smilies and claps for a post that says, "XXX, liberal or fascist" and that is all. Take the time please, to address a point, not the poster.

He has always tried to provide what members want, i.e. Tyr basically has his own forum for his poetry; Tailfins has the technology section that he is the most prolific; dmp and NT have the photography section that I for one wish they'd use even more often, (others too). Those that wish to mud wrestle should take it to the cage, leaving those that want to discuss/debate political or societal or world events the top of the board.

To say the board leans 'conservative' is hyperbole with the word 'leans,' even Gabby has a gun! She's our token liberal.

It's become a sad state when someone is called a 'liberal' or 'traitor' for questioning due process or any of a number of constitutional rights. I think what was once 'knee jerk' responses to the likes of a Maineman have become part of what is expected responses. I do wish/hope that some reasonable discussions will follow.

2. Speaking as a member, not staff, I've found the level of discussion on most issues over the past months or even years to have deteriorated to the point that there is really little to see here. It seems to me that most interactions between those that have ideas actually worth addressing have fallen to the level of name calling and other forms of derision. There's little or no depth to those that start off alright, someone will derail by jumping in to bring the tone back to divisiveness rather than discussion. Is there some hidden forum where tallies are being kept for derailed threads?

IMO much of the pitting of a group of posters against an individual has created what we now have. In the most recent case what's disturbing to me is that the 'group' and the 'individual' actually are not philosophically opposed on the big issues, but rather for the details and the presumed and projected differences of the individual by the group.

I've 'known' all the posters for a long time, most since they joined. All are good people from what I 'know' of them. All are capable of discussion, so why not try it?

I tried to keep my interactions in this thread respectful, wasn't hard for me to do, I like Drummond. I don't have to agree with all of his premises however. I don't have to agree or accept what I consider to be projections or 'all knowing statements,' indeed that is the point of discussions/debates, to defend one's own ideas. Sometimes both of us got snarky, but not to the point that the discussion was lost. As I think was demonstrated, he didn't agree with all of what I wrote either.

Jim tried to address this problem not so long ago, several times. He'd like a more interesting board with more posters. This cannot happen when visitors look upon thread after thread of name calling, 5 posts of smilies and claps for a post that says, "XXX, liberal or fascist" and that is all. Take the time please, to address a point, not the poster.

He has always tried to provide what members want, i.e. Tyr basically has his own forum for his poetry; Tailfins has the technology section that he is the most prolific; dmp and NT have the photography section that I for one wish they'd use even more often, (others too). Those that wish to mud wrestle should take it to the cage, leaving those that want to discuss/debate political or societal or world events the top of the board.

To say the board leans 'conservative' is hyperbole with the word 'leans,' even Gabby has a gun! She's our token liberal.

It's become a sad state when someone is called a 'liberal' or 'traitor' for questioning due process or any of a number of constitutional rights. I think what was once 'knee jerk' responses to the likes of a Maineman have become part of what is expected responses. I do wish/hope that some reasonable discussions will follow.

[jimnyc]

Very well said. I often think that the threads degrading, and other persistent fights/debates, are more based on perception, and more often from personal dislike. Every single member here is quite capable of awesome input and good debate. Sadly, those smarts are far too often used for folks to 'fight' with one another. And yes, no blame, as I see the whole thing more or less as circular. What I mean by that is that it goes around to an extent. One day one person, the next day another. Sometimes I read the awesome input, then the next thread I see the degradation has already killed a thread. I would move the majority of threads to the cage, but that would be an awful lot of threads, and then within hours it starts again in good threads.

And please, before anyone thinks I'm pointing, laying the blame game and such, I'm not. Read again where I said ALL are capable of the great posts, I've seen it. But if anyone is honest, they can look at such threads and see that many stop responding or don't respond at all, as they don't want to get involved. This isn't blaming, that's just the reality of things. If we ALL want things to grow, and get more members posting, we have to offer a reason for folks to register and post.

Also before anyone gets upset, I once again take my own responsibility. For example, Revelarts and I often disagree. Sometimes I get a little off track and get a tad ornery with him. Just recently, AGAIN, I had to send a message along and have a discussion with him, to apologize for my wording and such. While I'll continue to disagree and debate with him, and likely say stupid stuff again, I try to keep things cool and respectful, even if I do fail here and there. It happens, then we get back on the bicycle and try again.

[jimnyc]

I edited and put my post into my own post, so others don't mistakenly think you wrote that, Kath. Future readers will now read this post and be like WTF?

[Kathianne]

I edited and put my post into my own post, so others don't mistakenly think you wrote that, Kath. Future readers will now read this post and be like WTF?

Thanks for that! I wanted to get up a response section ASAP, so that the thread didn't derail. Then I got stuck in pm's before I could edit!

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Always a great problem how to increase board membership, and not invite in a free for all, chaotic mess.
Very true, this site needs more liberals, opposition and not strong right-wing members(we have abundance of those now )...

If most everybody is a steak lover , then getting lobster on the menu is a hard sell.

Getting members to stop sniping at each other is always a delicate issue unless one wants to fly with the banning paddle...

I can only speak for me but I will be civil to my lone nemesis here and hope for the best...

The rest of my thoughts I sent in a pm to Kat. She is free to share those with the other admin here..

Just that I encourage my friends to pay heed and try to help with this as best as they can!
For who among us does not want this board to thrive and prosper? - Tyr

[jimnyc]

Getting members to stop sniping at each other is always a delicate issue unless one wants to fly with the banning paddle...

I can only speak for me but I will be civil to my lone nemesis here and hope for the best...

No banning paddles.

There's no forcing of being civil, or expectations that the full civility will be there in every post of every thread. But I think if we all made a little bit of an effort to try we would see much better threads, resulting in much better responses.

At least until the next time one of you bastards dares disagree with me!

[Kathianne]

No banning paddles.

There's no forcing of being civil, or expectations that the full civility will be there in every post of every thread. But I think if we all made a little bit of an effort to try we would see much better threads, resulting in much better responses.

At least until the next time one of you bastards dares disagree with me!

My battery is about to die, quick input. I'm not for banning, I'm for folks that joined a messageboard to discuss/debate remembering why they first joined. It wasn't to be denigrated or to have their ass kissed.

It's good to have friends, it's good to acknowledge points one agrees with or that make one laugh or just think.

It's not so good when a 'group think' sets in, locking out any voices that aren't in lockstep. IMO one can either try to persuade the dissenter or one can destroy their argument, but it's bad form to destroy the poster rather than the post.

Drummond argued strongly for his position, yet didn't resort to calling me 'liberal.' When he moved in what I saw as 'unfair tactics, even logical fallacies,' I called out, but neither of us attacked each other, just ideas.

It's not hard, if one respects the other. Perhaps we can set this as a trend to continue?

[tailfins]

It wasn't to.... have their ass kissed.

That's why people become message board mods or Homeowners Association Presidents. Personally, I prefer cash for my work. If flattery can GET you free labor, then you're on the sweet side of the deal.

[Kathianne]

That's why people become message board mods or Homeowners Association Presidents. Personally, I prefer cash for my work. If flattery can GET you free labor, then you're on the sweet side of the deal.

Interesting observation. Personally seems that HOA Presidents choose to run for position for either personal agenda or really wanting to make community a better place, much like politicians.

OTOH, has little to do with either the points raised regarding the original thread or reason for having this OT thread in announcement.

Seems though perhaps it served to get some personal hostility off for staff. Hope it helps you.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

That's why people become message board mods or Homeowners Association Presidents. Personally, I prefer cash for my work. If flattery can GET you free labor, then you're on the sweet side of the deal.

Becoming well known for being snarky some people seem to aspire to..
I too, prefer cash but here we post freely and pay no dues.. The least we can do is try to improve conditions when asked to try to help out IMHO.
There is flattery, false flattery and sincere appreciation/agreement. The last one is to be encouraged since it reflects highly upon the poster...-Tyr

[Perianne]

Always a great problem how to increase board membership, and not invite in a free for all, chaotic mess.

Very true, this site needs more liberals, opposition and not strong right-wing members(we have abundance of those now.....

jim, I was supposed to send you a PM about my views. This ^^^ is exactly what I meant to send, but I feared it would offend you. Silly of me, I know. I didn't want to criticize what you have made.

Me too, I don't like when people here call one another "stupid", "liar", and the like. Everyone here is intelligent; some just have different viewpoints. I did not feel the "Libertarian" thread got out of hand. I loved it.

Until we quit calling people like Gabby names, vicious names, I don't see the board growing. As much as we all dislike the liberal viewpoint, they do provoke discussing and debate. Right now we all mostly congratulate each other on saying some conservative this-or-that in a different way than what we have said.

I caution of allowing too many liberals. I was on a site for a couple of years where the liberals and homosexuals came in. It ruined the board. It wasn't that they would post stuff about queers news and concerns, it was that every new post was a new thread. Soon, when you clicked "What's new", it was all about queers and liberal stuff. Many good conservatives and liberatarians left.

Nearly everyone here treats me kindly, as I do you. I wish we would do that to Gabby and other liberals. Even FJ.

Anyway, just my two cents.

[tailfins]

jim, I was supposed to send you a PM about my views. This ^^^ is exactly what I meant to send, but I feared it would offend you. Silly of me, I know. I didn't want to criticize what you have made.

Me too, I don't like when people here call one another "stupid", "liar", and the like. Everyone here is intelligent; some just have different viewpoints. I did not feel the "Libertarian" thread got out of hand. I loved it.

Until we quit calling people like Gabby names, vicious names, I don't see the board growing. As much as we all dislike the liberal viewpoint, they do provoke discussing and debate. Right now we all mostly congratulate each other on saying some conservative this-or-that in a different way than what we have said.

I caution of allowing too many liberals. I was on a site for a couple of years where the liberals and homosexuals came in. It ruined the board. It wasn't that they would post stuff about queers news and concerns, it was that every new post was a new thread. Soon, when you clicked "What's new", it was all about queers and liberal stuff. Many good conservatives and liberatarians left.

Nearly everyone here treats me kindly, as I do you. I wish we would do that to Gabby and other liberals. Even FJ.

Anyway, just my two cents.

If Gabby don't start nothin', there won't be nothin'.

[Drummond]

Apologies to Kathianne. I drafted & added a fairly long-winded reply to her on the 'Libertarian' thread before realising the existence of this one.

[jimnyc]

Apologies to Kathianne. I drafted & added a fairly long-winded reply to her on the 'Libertarian' thread before realising the existence of this one.

Looks like you put it in this thread to me?

[Drummond]

jim, I was supposed to send you a PM about my views. This ^^^ is exactly what I meant to send, but I feared it would offend you. Silly of me, I know. I didn't want to criticize what you have made.

Me too, I don't like when people here call one another "stupid", "liar", and the like. Everyone here is intelligent; some just have different viewpoints. I did not feel the "Libertarian" thread got out of hand. I loved it.

Until we quit calling people like Gabby names, vicious names, I don't see the board growing. As much as we all dislike the liberal viewpoint, they do provoke discussing and debate. Right now we all mostly congratulate each other on saying some conservative this-or-that in a different way than what we have said.

I caution of allowing too many liberals. I was on a site for a couple of years where the liberals and homosexuals came in. It ruined the board. It wasn't that they would post stuff about queers news and concerns, it was that every new post was a new thread. Soon, when you clicked "What's new", it was all about queers and liberal stuff. Many good conservatives and liberatarians left.

Nearly everyone here treats me kindly, as I do you. I wish we would do that to Gabby and other liberals. Even FJ.

FJ is perfectly welcome to give such conduct to others, as well as to expect to receive it. This is no less than a fair and even-handed expectation.

As to the bolded part ... I simply cannot agree more !! I saw just such an example of ruination on a forum where Leftist trolls invaded it and smashed up all chance of civilised discussion. Insults, name-calling ... that was just a part of it. I learned from that experience that there are no depths a fully committed Leftie will not stoop to.

I have never seen the equivalent offered to anything like such an extent from those genuinely representing the Right.