Senior Member
Actually, I would more or less agree with you. This country was founded by Christian and Deist men (with the odd Jew and some atheists and agnostics thrown in for good measure) on principles that Christianity holds in common with many of the other world religions.Originally Posted by glockmail
Smitten Senior Admin
Well said, G. All evidence of your statement falls on deaf ears. What a surprise. Yet we are the insecure ones.
Perhaps our Christianphobics can explain why it bothers them so much that we are a nation founded by Christians, on Christian principles? I have asked this question a few times, and no one seems able to answer.
They prefer to throw up dust by trying to equate factual descriptions of our nation's roots, to a Theocracy. Time to move on from that faux argument-no one here is claiming it was or should be a Theocracy.
After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box - Author unknown
“Unfortunately, the truth is now whatever the media say it is”
-Abbey
Gunny's nightmare
There's that bullshit about deists again.
Senior Member
From Wikipedia:There's that bullshit about deists again.
Deism in America
In America, Enlightenment philosophy (which itself was heavily inspired by Deist ideals) played a major role in creating the principle of separation of church and state, expressed in the religious freedom clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution. Founding Fathers who were especially noted for being influenced by such philosophy include Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, Hugh Williamson, James Wilson,[29] and James Madison.[30] Although these men were members of traditional Christian denominations (Hugh Williamson was a Presbyterian and the rest were Episcopalians), their political speeches show distinct Deistic influence. Other notable Founding Fathers may have been more directly Deist. These include Ethan Allen[31] and Thomas Paine (who published The Age of Reason, a treatise that helped to popularize Deism throughout America and Europe). Elihu Palmer (1764-1806) wrote the "Bible" of American Deism in his Principles of Nature (1801) and attempted to organize Deism by forming the "Deistical Society of New York."
Currently (as of 2007) there is an ongoing controversy in the United States over whether or not America was founded as a "Christian nation" based on Judeo-Christian ideals. This has spawned a subsidiary controversy over whether the Founding Fathers were Christians or Deists or something in between.[32] Particularly heated is the debate over the beliefs of Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington, for some of whom the evidence is mixed.[33] However, Benjamin Franklin wrote in his autobiography, "Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."[34]
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There are foundational Chistian principles that are neccessary for this to be a Christian nation, and those prinicples are conspicuously absent from the list of this nation's founding principles. This nation was founded on rational principles. Christianity holds no monoploly on any of the principles this nation was founded upon. None. Not one.
"... whenever any number of men, calling themselves a government, do anything to another man, or to his property, which they had no right to do as individuals, they thereby declare themselves trespassers, robbers, or murderers, according to the nature of their acts." - Lysander Spooner
Member
How is this...
...nonsense? It's a perfectly clear and reasonable question. Just once, for the hell of it, why don't you try putting the round peg in the round hole, and see what happens?
You're getting ahead of yourself; let's establish first things first. Will you concede that the U.S. Constitution's strict, almost adversarial approach to central government is unique in human history?
What other conclusion can I draw when you spout lunacy about the Gospel?You accuse without basis, and display obstinent ignorance while claiming I know nothing of God.
False conclusion. In the first place, I haven't spoken of perfection; rather, I mentioned perfectibility. In the second place, neither term enters into it - although the communist pipe dream, for example, imagines that man can somehow elevate his nature to a higher, more altruistic plane. This is, of course, nonsense, requiring - as it does - coercion and tyranny for its implementation and perpetuation.
My point is, no government can be said to proceed from the assumption of man's flawed nature if said government imagines itself the guarantor of rights and the answer to all problems. Government is comprised of PEOPLE, you see.
The U.S. Constitution is unique in that it accepts man's fallen and flawed nature and ACTS ACCORDINGLY. Stop looking for a raving theocrat behind every bush long enough to think - reasonably and rationally - about what the Constitution DOES.
Ah - my luck holds!
This quote tells me that you have either, 1) failed to read any of my posts in this thread, dealing with theocracy, and the mistaken notion that this is a Christian nation, or, 2) have done so poorly and superficially - in the manner of GW in Ohio - looking only for the dribs and drabs that might serve to reinforce your prejudices. Let's kick the tone of this discussion up a notch, LOki. Let's talk reasonably and rationally.It's good to know that petitio principii is still the breakfast of champions amongs theocrats.
Gunny's nightmare
Did you write that wiki article or Loki? As it could have been written by anyone and reviewed by no one it's a bullshit source.
Gunny's nightmare
Rationality holds no monoploly on any of the principles this nation was founded upon. None. Not one.
Senior Member
glockie: I took the trouble to provide support for my contention that the founding fathers either were Deists or were heavily influenced by Deism. That Wikipedia article also presents the standard historical view of the subject.
You can don your mantle of ignorance and say it's bullshit. I could care less; I'm done with you.
Are there any rational conservatives around here?
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"...the Constitution treats central government as a necessary evil, whose natural inclination is toward tyranny,..." is question begging. That makes it question begging nonsense.
No. It's not. The Feudal system of government was rabidly adversarial to central government--particularly prior to the notion of The Divine Right of Kings. The city states of Greece were rather adversarial to the notion of central governemnt. The tribal and clan organization of government that was effectivly destroyed by the central governemt of the Roman Empire was by definition adversarial to central government. So the watered down adversarial approach of the US Consitution is in no way unique in human history.
You continue with this unsupported false accusation as if it is fact--BRAVO!
Which only reinforces my assertion that every government proceeds from an assumption of man's imperfection. Thanks.
All of which has alot in common with Christianity, and many other religions--another reinforcement, provided by you, of my argument against the "uniqueness" of this prinicple--Thanks again.
Are you saying that all other governments assert themselves as the guarantor of rights, and the answer to all problems? I don't think any governments do, or ever have--but certain religions make very, very similar claims for themselves.
Not even remotely.
Your luck doesn't even hold it's own breath.
Yes, let's. That will require you to cease with the question begging assertions you've been so fond of, like:<blockquote>"But, why couldn't central government be trusted with broad powers over the people? "</blockquote>And;<blockquote>"Why does the U.S. Constitution - uniquely in human history - regard government with such distrust?"</blockquote>What that quote should have told you musicman, is that I actually read your posts and understand what you write--even if you don't; and if you want to step the conversation up a notch, you're the one who has to abandon the favored logical fallacy of the sanctimoniously certain, and embrace reason and rationality in your discourse.
"... whenever any number of men, calling themselves a government, do anything to another man, or to his property, which they had no right to do as individuals, they thereby declare themselves trespassers, robbers, or murderers, according to the nature of their acts." - Lysander Spooner
Extra Heavy
Rationality is the sole source of the founding principles of this nation--rationality does hold the monopoly.
"... whenever any number of men, calling themselves a government, do anything to another man, or to his property, which they had no right to do as individuals, they thereby declare themselves trespassers, robbers, or murderers, according to the nature of their acts." - Lysander Spooner
Senior Member
glockie: You don't know jack shit about history, do you?
Ever hear of the Age of Reason?
Gunny's nightmare
You mean the standard liberal view. To deny that is to deny reason.
Gunny's nightmare
I agree. What LOki said was illogical, and I proved it by turning it around on him.
Gunny's nightmare
I'll let you and GW fight over that one.
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