America was founded as a Christian Nation

[LOki]

Its very simple Glock, they wanted religious freedom, they did not want to be forced to join the church of England, they wanted the choice to be Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Baptists etc. etc.......however they did not include Hasidic Jews, Shiite Muslims, cow worshiping dotheads, Tibetan monks etc. etc., ...

They did not exclude them.

...and by most accounts the majority of signators to the Declaration Of Independence and drafters of the Constitution were in fact hardcore Christians and stamped this fervor all over the Constitution and Bill Of Rights.

Correction: ...by most fundamentalist Christian accounts that cannot be substatiated by evidence,...

You see though we've become a nation that would rather lie in order to ride the middle of the fence rather than tell the truth about this country's roots and maybe remove the wool from a few people's eyes.

Actually, we've become a nation that has turned it's back on rationality in favor of notions that appeal to emotions, such as superstitions, mythology, and psuedo-science.

The way I look at it maybe we should move ever so slightly towards merging religion and government, what could it hurt? Can't do any worse than secularism.

Divine right of kings ring a bell? How about the Inquisitions? Cromwell? Does the Taliban ring a fucking bell for you?

[OCA]

The writer of the US Constitution, Thomas Jefferson, was as far from a "hardcore Christian" as they come. He was a scientist to the core and his religious views most closely resembled those of Deism. By the way, he wasn't the only one--nor was he the exception to the rule. The founders charged him with writing the freakin' Constitution! Here's a few quotes and a little bit of info for you to chew on, starting with this one: That's straight from T.J.'s pen. Here's some more:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

*Edit* I like this one too:

Who's the fool sandwich man?

Funny they always go to Jefferson like nobody else had a freakin thing to say about the document, yeah there were a couple other deists out of about 500 or so people who were in the mix(not just signers) so yeah its logical to think the Deists outweighed everyone else, right? Why don't you read it, actually read it for once in your life and you will find you come to the same conclusion as me.

Can you explain to me why our money has "in god we trust" on it and there is always a preacher, reverend etc. etc. of the Christian faith who leads prayer before Congressional sessions commence and not a Rabbi, Shaman or some other freakazoid leading it? Answer:we are a Christian nation. Stop the denial.

[OCA]

And is this the same Jefferson who boned his SLAVE? Note the word SLAVE is in capital letters......good man, Deism, very honourable.

[OCA]

They did not exclude them.

Correction: ...by most fundamentalist Christian accounts that cannot be substatiated by evidence,...

For the love of Christ! Look at the people who first came here up through to the time of the signing of the DOI, you need physical evidence? Fuck they they burned people at the stake because they though they were witches or possessed, don't get much more hardcore than that.


[/QUOTE]Divine right of kings ring a bell? How about the Inquisitions? Cromwell? Does the Taliban ring a fucking bell for you?[/QUOTE]

Uhhhhh, can you go just a hair more overboard to the extreme?

[Hagbard Celine]

Funny they always go to Jefferson like nobody else had a freakin thing to say about the document, yeah there were a couple other deists out of about 500 or so people who were in the mix(not just signers) so yeah its logical to think the Deists outweighed everyone else, right? Why don't you read it, actually read it for once in your life and you will find you come to the same conclusion as me.

Can you explain to me why our money has "in god we trust" on it and there is always a preacher, reverend etc. etc. of the Christian faith who leads prayer before Congressional sessions commence and not a Rabbi, Shaman or some other freakazoid leading it? Answer:we are a Christian nation. Stop the denial.

"In God We Trust" was placed on our money because of increased religious fervor during the civil war. During the Revolution--the time of the founders--the mottos and phrases printed on US currency were things that encouraged patience with and faithfulness in the struggle for independence. The phrase "In God We Trust" did not become the national motto until 1973 and replaced the original, (better in my opinion) motto, which was E Pluribus Unum (Out of many, one.)

As for the Congressional prayer, it was not unanimously agreed that this was the best way to open Congress, but was allowed because they valued freedom of religion. http://www.buchanan.org/h-116.html

Your view is myopic and you have no understanding of the founders or their intentions or a realistic grasp of history for that matter. That much is obvious.

[-Cp]

Nope... none of our founders were Christians... Jeesh...

Try George Washington on for size:

By the President of the United States of America, a Proclamation.
Thanksgiving Proclamation

[New York, 3 October 1789]


Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor-- and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness.

Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be-- That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks--for his kind care and protection of the People of this Country previous to their becoming a Nation--for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his Providence which we experienced in the course and conclusion of the late war--for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed--for the peaceable and rational manner, in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted--for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed; and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us.

and also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions-- to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually--to render our national government a blessing to all the people, by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed--to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shewn kindness unto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord--To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the encrease of science among them and us--and generally to grant unto all Mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best.

Given under my hand at the City of New York the third day of October in the year of our Lord 1789.

Go: Washington

[avatar4321]

Oh, fuck you.

This country was founded by a bunch of Deists and renegade Christians who had seen first-hand what dogmatic Christian dogma can do to wreck people's lives and they definitely were against identifying this country with any one religion.

You might argue that this is a Christian nation because most people are nominally Christian, but there is no official religion.

And most of the people who are nominally Christian couldn't give a rat's ass about going to church or practicing Christianity.

you know if you dont agree with the conclusions set forth in the post there are much more civil ways of dealing with it. your reaction tells us more about your own assumption of the strength of your position then it does to anything the original poster said.

[The ClayTaurus]

Nope... none of our founders were Christians... Jeesh...

Try George Washington on for size:

Please show where someone in this thread claimed none of our founders were Christians.

[glockmail]

So I take it no one's read the book?

[LOki]

Nope... none of our founders were Christians... Jeesh...

Strawman.

Try George Washington on for size:

By the President of the United States of America, a Proclamation.
Thanksgiving Proclamation

[New York, 3 October 1789]


Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor-- and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness.

Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be-- That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks--for his kind care and protection of the People of this Country previous to their becoming a Nation--for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his Providence which we experienced in the course and conclusion of the late war--for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed--for the peaceable and rational manner, in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted--for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed; and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us.

and also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions-- to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually--to render our national government a blessing to all the people, by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed--to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shewn kindness unto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord--To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the encrease of science among them and us--and generally to grant unto all Mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best.

Given under my hand at the City of New York the third day of October in the year of our Lord 1789.

Go: Washington

Yes, lets try <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_remsburg/six_historic_americans/chapter_3.html">Washington</a> on for size. In all of the above, NOT ONE MENTION OF CHRIST. Intersting omission for a Christian, certainly a serious ommission for a citation alleged to confirm Washington's Christianity--but not so interesting or serious if Washington was a Deist.<blockquote>"Washington was no infidel, if by infidel is meant unbeliever. Washington had an unquestioning faith in Providence and, as we have seen, he voiced this faith publicly on numerous occasions. That this was no mere rhetorical flourish on his part, designed for public consumption, is apparent from his constant allusions to Providence in his personal letters. There is every reason to believe, from a careful analysis of religious references in his private correspondence, that Washington’s reliance upon a Grand Designer along Deist lines was as deep-seated and meaningful for his life as, say, Ralph Waldo Emerson’s serene confidence in a Universal Spirit permeating the ever shifting appearances of the everyday world."
--<i>Washington and Religion</i> by Paul F. Boller, Jr.</blockquote>Boller's not the only one:<blockquote>"I have diligently perused every line that Washington ever gave to the public, and I do not find one expression in which he pledges, himself as a believer in Christianity. I think anyone who will candidly do as I have done, will come to the conclusion that he was a Deist and nothing more."
-- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in an interview with Mr. Robert Dale Owen written on November 13, 1831, which was publlshed in New York two weeks later, quoted from Franklin Steiner, <i>The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents</i>, pp. 27</blockquote>And what did Washington think of religion and government?<blockquote>"If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution."
--George Washington; letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789, in Anson Phelps Stokes, Church and State in the United States, Vol 1. p. 495, quoted from Albert J Menendez and Edd Doerr, <i>The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom</i></blockquote>How about these apples?<blockquote>"I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. To this consideration we ought to ascribe the absence of any regulation, respecting religion, from the Magna-Charta of our country."
-- George Washington, responding to a group of clergymen who complained that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, in 1789, Papers, Presidential Series, 4:274</blockquote>What else have you got?

[OCA]

"In God We Trust" was placed on our money because of increased religious fervor during the civil war. During the Revolution--the time of the founders--the mottos and phrases printed on US currency were things that encouraged patience with and faithfulness in the struggle for independence. The phrase "In God We Trust" did not become the national motto until 1973 and replaced the original, (better in my opinion) motto, which was E Pluribus Unum (Out of many, one.)

As for the Congressional prayer, it was not unanimously agreed that this was the best way to open Congress, but was allowed because they valued freedom of religion. http://www.buchanan.org/h-116.html

Your view is myopic and you have no understanding of the founders or their intentions or a realistic grasp of history for that matter. That much is obvious.

I argue that you are attempting to rewrite history to fit your sick secular views.

The fact is America was founded by Christians and that are laws and institutions are based on biblical values, thats not even argueable.

At this point i'm 100% positive that you've never read the constitution and bill of rights and that you know nothing or next to nothing about any of the founders next to Jefferson the slave fucker.

Lets roll back some of the seperation of church and state and see what happens, can't fuck it up anymore than what secularism has.

Can libs be anymore less understanding of what made America great before the 20th century or the foundations of America's roots?

[OCA]

Please show where someone in this thread claimed none of our founders were Christians.

Nobody made that claim but the claim was made that the constitution and bill of rights are not firmly rooted in Christianity, unargueably they are, any claim to the contrary is simply assinine and laugheable.

[OCA]

Strawman.

Yes, lets try <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_remsburg/six_historic_americans/chapter_3.html">Washington</a> on for size. In all of the above, NOT ONE MENTION OF CHRIST. Intersting omission for a Christian, certainly a serious ommission for a citation alleged to confirm Washington's Christianity--but not so interesting or serious if Washington was a Deist.<blockquote>"Washington was no infidel, if by infidel is meant unbeliever. Washington had an unquestioning faith in Providence and, as we have seen, he voiced this faith publicly on numerous occasions. That this was no mere rhetorical flourish on his part, designed for public consumption, is apparent from his constant allusions to Providence in his personal letters. There is every reason to believe, from a careful analysis of religious references in his private correspondence, that Washington’s reliance upon a Grand Designer along Deist lines was as deep-seated and meaningful for his life as, say, Ralph Waldo Emerson’s serene confidence in a Universal Spirit permeating the ever shifting appearances of the everyday world."
--<i>Washington and Religion</i> by Paul F. Boller, Jr.</blockquote>Boller's not the only one:<blockquote>"I have diligently perused every line that Washington ever gave to the public, and I do not find one expression in which he pledges, himself as a believer in Christianity. I think anyone who will candidly do as I have done, will come to the conclusion that he was a Deist and nothing more."
-- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in an interview with Mr. Robert Dale Owen written on November 13, 1831, which was publlshed in New York two weeks later, quoted from Franklin Steiner, <i>The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents</i>, pp. 27</blockquote>And what did Washington think of religion and government?<blockquote>"If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution."
--George Washington; letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789, in Anson Phelps Stokes, Church and State in the United States, Vol 1. p. 495, quoted from Albert J Menendez and Edd Doerr, <i>The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom</i></blockquote>How about these apples?<blockquote>"I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. To this consideration we ought to ascribe the absence of any regulation, respecting religion, from the Magna-Charta of our country."
-- George Washington, responding to a group of clergymen who complained that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, in 1789, Papers, Presidential Series, 4:274</blockquote>What else have you got?

Then I assume that you are arguing that the general societal shithole that America finds itself in currently can be traced back to George since we all know that the root cause of the shithole is the removal of the bible and religious teachings, well hell any teachings that deal with moral absolutes, right vs wrong, from the American classroom.

I don't think George and Thomas knew what a slippery slope they were creating with this church/state seperation bullshit.

[Missileman]

Nobody made that claim but the claim was made that the constitution and bill of rights are not firmly rooted in Christianity, unargueably they are, any claim to the contrary is simply assinine and laugheable.

Are you really trying to say that freedom of religion is a Christian concept? That is truly assinine and laughable. If you have any doubts, I refer you to Commandment #1.

[OCA]

Are you really trying to say that freedom of religion is a Christian concept? That is truly assinine and laughable. If you have any doubts, I refer you to Commandment #1.

Where did I say it was? I'm simply saying that America should fully embrace its Christian origins and revisit that which made it great.