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  1. #16
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    I used to believe some of the 9-11 conspiracy theories. Until I attended a lecture by a couple of building designers who explained, step by step, how the Twin Towers collapsed. They illustrated each step with a visual presentation.
    I think there is a documentary out where they go through the same explanation. It's totally fascinating.

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    Think I know the one you mean and it is a fine explanation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WiccanLiberal View Post
    The focus of the article is that there are a significant number of people who choose to believe that the death, on camera, of a newswoman and her cameraman was a sham concocted by some New World Order conspiracy. These internet "experts" claim she has been given a new identity and the whole thing is a specific ploy to promote gun control. Apparently so we can be led like sheep. They further are claiming that her grieving boyfriend is an actor hired for the same scheme. the writer of the article is a longtime friend of the boyfriend and details the way in which these conspiracy spouting idiots have piled more grief on someone who doesn't need it at the same time as they are pouring their moronic mental vomitus onto the internet for the gullible to read. Not every bad thing that happens has an explanation. Conspiracy theorists seem unable to accept that Shit Happens is sometimes the absolute truth.
    my problem with the article --and many like it-- is that it picks one really bad example of a "conspiracy theorist" or "theory" then uses that to smear ALL so called conspiracy and people that question various conventional wisdom or knowledge.
    It uses too broad a brush.
    This is dishonest.
    It and some commentary here uses the logical fallacy called the strawman.

    But in general at nearly every major event there are people with various theories based on incoming evidence. some true, some false, some crazy, some partially true, partially false or mostly true. However some events causes are frankly UNKNOWN and/or unknowable.
    some ... many are multi layered.


    But conventional wisdom rarely allows for the above full range of honest inquirer. Most of us like to frame issues quickly and within our paradigm of the world 1ST then explore .. or quickly settle on... the answers within that range. information outside of it is often automatically rejected or ignored. Often not because the FACTS are so powerful for the view but because the other info brings in conclusions that are to "unrealistic" in our minds. That is, it doesn't fit in our paradigms or world views or even narrower their political views.
    People will attack very emotionally things that question their world view. logic and evidence doesn't always have he final say.

    It's been seen over and over in science where scientist as a GROUP have refused to even entertain new information or theories for years or even decades because it broke with the established "reality" of scientific thought.

    there are paradigms in american thinking that make it hard for some to seriously consider some facts. knee jerk angry name calling filled rejection is all that's called for to keep most in line with the "reasonable" people.
    Last edited by revelarts; 10-04-2015 at 09:30 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by gabosaurus View Post
    I used to believe some of the 9-11 conspiracy theories. Until I attended a lecture by a couple of building designers who explained, step by step, how the Twin Towers collapsed. They illustrated each step with a visual presentation.
    I think there is a documentary out where they go through the same explanation. It's totally fascinating.
    Quote Originally Posted by WiccanLiberal View Post
    Think I know the one you mean and it is a fine explanation.
    what documentary is that exactly?
    I'd love to see it.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by WiccanLiberal View Post
    It means you're a force of nature for sure. And the temper makes sense. You probably have some pretty scary intuition sometimes as well.
    I'm a force of something, that's for sure. I probably should read a little more up on it. But I get the thing with others because I can be the worst thing you ever met, or your best friend. Depends on you. I'm benign in most cases. I'm not a mean person. Being mean and being able to be mean are two VERY different things.

    That intuition crap has bugged the crap out of me since I was a kid. That whole deja vu crap still creeps me out. And I know better now than to go against my instincts. Every time I have, I 've got burned.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    my problem with the article --and many like it-- is that it picks one really bad example of a "conspiracy theorist" or "theory" then uses that to smear ALL so called conspiracy and people that question various conventional wisdom or knowledge.
    It uses too broad a brush.
    This is dishonest.
    It and some commentary here uses the logical fallacy called the strawman.

    But in general at nearly every major event there are people with various theories based on incoming evidence. some true, some false, some crazy, some partially true, partially false or mostly true. However some events causes are frankly UNKNOWN and/or unknowable.
    some ... many are multi layered.


    But conventional wisdom rarely allows for the above full range of honest inquirer. Most of us like to frame issues quickly and within our paradigm of the world 1ST then explore .. or quickly settle on... the answers within that range. information outside of it is often automatically rejected or ignored. Often not because the FACTS are so powerful for the view but because the other info brings in conclusions that are to "unrealistic" in our minds. That is, it doesn't fit in our paradigms or world views or even narrower their political views.
    People will attack very emotionally things that question their world view. logic and evidence doesn't always have he final say.

    It's been seen over and over in science where scientist as a GROUP have refused to even entertain new information or theories for years or even decades because it broke with the established "reality" of scientific thought.

    there are paradigms in american thinking that make it hard for some to seriously consider some facts. knee jerk angry name calling filled rejection is all that's called for to keep most in line with the "reasonable" people.
    Try again. The logic is simple so there is no fallacy. The fallacy begins when you try to turn boiling water into a scientific experiment.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    It's always puzzled me why some people have to come up with theories that are opposite to what's in the news.

    Conspiracy theories seems to have become a popular culture.

    It's something that doesn't entertain me, it doesn't pay my mortgage.

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nonnie View Post
    It's always puzzled me why some people have to come up with theories that are opposite to what's in the news.
    Conspiracy theories seems to have become a popular culture.
    It's something that doesn't entertain me, it doesn't pay my mortgage.

    as I mentioned before some people do just "come up with theories" but other people are just looking more closely and DISCOVERING that the news hasn't told the WHOLE story or that the story is basically false.
    they didn't "come up with it".

    And some people do find conspiracy theory "entertaining". But you're right, it doesn't pay the mortgage but neither does most of the News on Fox CNN or elsewhere. And here's the thing for me if the "conspiracy theories" are TRUE then they are NEWS and History. Which is something that is important and fuels how we react to events now and in the future.

    the thing is there's well documented History of plenty of conspiracy "theories" that have finally after decades of cover up been admitted to be true. I want to repeat AFTER DECADES of cover up because one of the lines use as a reason why conspiracies are unreal is because "people would talk" people or the gov't "can't keep that kind of secret". but the fact is they have.


    Here's a short list of conspiracy theories that are true. That people in the mainstream scoffed at those who proposed them as being crazy or having an agenda because the Gov't, the media and historians told the general public a different story. told the public lies.

    •One of the 1st that always comes to my mind is that the WHOLE FBI for decades told the american public that there was NO SUCH THING as "Organized Crime" or "international criminal gangs" it was a MYTH.

    •the Gov't the media and books said that the civil rights and anti war movement in the 40s - 60's was paranoid and had an agenda in accusing the Federal gov't of spying and harassing them. But the federal gov't admitted years that they were illegally spying on, harassing, putting in agents to sow problems, faking events to blame on those groups and more. the FBI's program for this was called "cointelpro"

    •the state and local gov'ts and the national media and books said that the civil rights and anti war movement in the 40s- 60's were paranoid and had an agenda in accusing the the state and local elected officials and law enforcement of secretly working with groups like the KKK to defeat civil rights and other issues. and coordinate infiltration, spying and harassing them. one of those programs was called "Mississippi Sovereignty Commission"

    •"Operation Mockingbird" where CIA Funded propaganda in private media in the US and abroad. with CIA plants and friendly's in place at the major news outlets to effect public opinion and "knowledge".

    •"Operation Ajax" where the CIA killed the democratically elected Iranin president. Covered up for decades.

    •"Operation Galdio" where the Cia and NATO did terrorist attacks in europe and blamed it on comunist and leftist. went on for decade may still be going on.

    •"MKUltra" where the gov't used LSD and other drug and techniques against citizens wills to brainwash and mind control people.

    •"Tuskegee experiments" and Nuke radiation experimentation: Tuskegee where gov't doctors lied to men with syphilis that they were treating them but they were actually just documenting the progress of the disease. Nuke materials and bomb fallout exposer was done to soldiers, college students and even children often without there knowledge.

    •During Prohibition some FBI agents regularly poisoned some illegal liquor with methane, formaldehyde, ammonia, arsenic, kerosene and more to make it appear that booze was in fact deadly to go along with their propaganda to dissuade the public from alcohol use. Many did in fact die.

    •Gulf war I CIA Had a young woman Nayirah al-Sabah lie to the UN and congress about incubator babies supposedly killed by Iraqi soldiers.

    •Cigarette Corps and Asbestos Corps hide cancer for decades. both of those industries knew that their products caused cancer, they work in concert, and paid for false studies, did propaganda and fought regs and cajoled politicians while Americans died and they made $$$.

    •"Iran-Contra" Secret Deals from Iran ,CIA providing drugs for money (L.A. Crack boom) to supply guns for contras under executive control.

    •Quebec police in 2005 to throwing stones at other Israeli soldiers so they could blame it on Palestinians, as an excuse to crack down on peaceful protests by the Palestinians

    Is everything a conspiracy? No, of course not. There's alway plenty of random trouble and trouble makers.
    But are there real conspiracies? Yes there are.
    So how can we know the difference?
    Well we could just assume all people who question the status quo inside or outside the gov't or corps have psychologically issues, are cranks or are sincere but poor deluded souls and just ignore them.
    Or we could wait for gov'ts or corporations to admit their organized corruption 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 (infinite) years down the line.
    Or we can look at the best evidence from various sources , be brutally honest, and make our on decisions... on a case by case basis.

    the last option is what i like to do.
    Last edited by revelarts; 10-05-2015 at 09:36 AM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    as I mentioned before some people do just "come up with theories" but other people are just looking more closely and DISCOVERING that the news hasn't told the WHOLE story or that the story is basically false.
    they didn't "come up with it".

    And some people do find conspiracy theory "entertaining". But you're right, it doesn't pay the mortgage but neither does most of the News on Fox CNN or elsewhere. And here's the thing for me if the "conspiracy theories" are TRUE then they are NEWS and History. Which is something that is important and fuels how we react to events now and in the future.

    the thing is there's well documented History of plenty of conspiracy "theories" that have finally after decades of cover up been admitted to be true. I want to repeat AFTER DECADES of cover up because one of the lines use as a reason why conspiracies are unreal is because "people would talk" people or the gov't "can't keep that kind of secret". but the fact is they have.


    Here's a short list of conspiracy theories that are true. That people in the mainstream scoffed at those who proposed them as being crazy or having an agenda because the Gov't, the media and historians told the general public a different story. told the public lies.




    Is everything a conspiracy? No, of course not. There's alway plenty of random trouble and trouble makers.
    But are there real conspiracies? Yes there are.
    So how can we know the difference?
    Well we could just assume all people who question the status quo inside or outside the gov't or corps have psychologically issues, are cranks or are sincere but poor deluded souls and just ignore them.
    Or we could wait for gov'ts or corporations to admit their organized corruption 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 (infinite) years down the line.
    Or we can look at the best evidence from various sources , be brutally honest, and make our on decisions... on a case by case basis.

    the last option is what i like to do.
    Yes. you're right. You've defended that little tin foil hat you're wearing more than once.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nonnie View Post
    It's always puzzled me why some people have to come up with theories that are opposite to what's in the news.

    Conspiracy theories seems to have become a popular culture.

    It's something that doesn't entertain me, it doesn't pay my mortgage.
    I don't even see it that way. The news isn't very honest. I usually go with 2-3 sources and pull the common denominators. That's as close as you usually get to the truth.

    People who are incapable of accepting the "shit happens" thing are the ones who always come up with this conspiracy crap. I always go back to the basics. They've dragged the JFK thing out since I was 3. Either Oswald was a whackjob or somebody paid him. If somebody paid him, they'd have written a book and been on 60 Minutes by now. Our society is more greedy than loyal and if anyone knew any secrets about the arguably most important assassination in the 20th century, they'd be making money off it.

    Same with 9/11. You couldn't possibly get the number of people it would take into a conspiracy like that without someone flapping their gums. 9/11 was the result of American arrogance, same as Pearl Harbor. We just don't believe as a people anyone has the stones to hit us.

    I've tried to understand how some of these people think but I'm afraid they're outside the even weird fringe for me. I think too logically and there's no logic to them. When you start inventing crap, you're outside my realm.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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  13. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voted4Reagan View Post
    But people tell me WHAT I SAW didnt happen....
    It's not that it didn't happen, it's how it happened right?

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    what documentary is that exactly?
    I'd love to see it.
    IIRC it was done by Popular Science.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


  14. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motown View Post
    Yes. you're right. You've defended that little tin foil hat you're wearing more than once.
    see what i mean.
    See how some people go for completely CONTENTLESS name calling,
    rather than using facts, evidence, reason or logic to try and make a real point.

    It's effective with a lot of folks and shuts down conversations and real thinking.
    You don't have to think about some things AT ALL if you can just label it OUTSIDE of "normal" people talk.

    It's lazy, but group social pressure and emotion often do work better rational appeals.
    Last edited by revelarts; 10-05-2015 at 09:03 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  15. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    see what i mean.
    See how some people go for completely CONTENTLESS name calling,
    rather than using facts, evidence, reason or logic to try and make a real point.

    It's effective with a lot of folks and shuts down conversations and real thinking.
    You don't have to think about some things AT ALL if you can just label it OUTSIDE of "normal" people talk.

    It's lazy, but group social pressure and emotion often do work better rational appeals.
    We already got a thread on name calling.

    There's"real thinking" and there's inventing crap. Might make you a good inventor but it doesn't make you a critical thinker.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    We already got a thread on name calling.

    There's"real thinking" and there's inventing crap. Might make you a good inventor but it doesn't make you a critical thinker.
    what exactly have i invented here Gunny?
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    There are a lot of really crazy conspiracy theories out there. Anyone who holds such beliefs is equally loony and likely needs mental help. At the very least.
    My favorite conspiracy theories (your mileage may vary):

    ** Sept. 11 attacks were an inside job
    ** The moon landings were faked
    ** The Holocaust never happened
    ** (insert any politician's name here) is a space alien planning to control the earth
    ** (Hitler, Elvis, JFK, John Lennon, etc) faked their death and are living in obscuring somepace
    ** Obama was born in Kenya

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