The treason of the intellectuals & “The Undoing of Thought”

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I see you attacking someone who doesn't deserve it, asshole. I hate to break it to you, sweetie, but people don't hang on your every word.

No dumbass ,what you saw was me responding to this by him!

That was hardly a comment on the piece. It was a strawman fallacy.

Now, what is your problem, jackass?--Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

My, my --how the rat duo scurries away.. --Tyr

[fj1200]

Fallacies are easily proven to be just that.

Exactly. I know what you typed and I know the definition. Not much necessary beyond that.

...... I'll will put you back on ignore.

You make a lot out of nothing.

[fj1200]

And there you hit upon on it my friend. That grand betrayal was disguised to attempt to hide its main purpose-- to subvert the culture and move it away from Christian moral principles! Which is no different than is the Political Correctness championed by the libs/leftist and dems today. And back by the media, the government and so-called intellectuals(UNIVERSITIES ,ETC.) today in USA.

They rejecting Christian morality, seek to not only get their insane views accepted but insist on vilifying and attempting to destroy that morality and its followers.
This is not new even if many that actually see here in the USA today think it is. It can easily be traced back well over two centuries ...
Statism seeks to replace God and needs to destroy its opposition by vilification--hence Political Correctness was born. The government seeks cultural change to back its power grabbing. That Cultural change falls under the umbrella of Political Correctness= hence, vilifying the truth that its opposition strikes back with!
Boils down to darkness attacking the Light. As in evil principles being promoted over that of Christian principles.
They just chose to hide it under a political cause/ umbrella, advanced by the dem party and , government/media.

Nietzsche is dead!! God is not!--Tyr

You're grabbing at evidence which supports your already derived conclusion. In some respects Christians have been their own worst enemies by creating a version which is exclusionary and purposely seeks to keep out any that don't agree with the beliefs of the people and not necessarily the tenets of the religion. This can be seen historically where the church, churches I should say, have at times supported slavery, supported segregation, kept women from serving in leadership roles, etc.

Do some reject Christian morality? Of course some do. Do or have Christians rejected Christian morality and claim to be Christian? Undoubtedly. You can't solely blame outside forces when internal forces do as much or even more harm.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

You're grabbing at evidence which supports your already derived conclusion. In some respects Christians have been their own worst enemies by creating a version which is exclusionary and purposely seeks to keep out any that don't agree with the beliefs of the people and not necessarily the tenets of the religion. This can be seen historically where the church, churches I should say, have at times supported slavery, supported segregation, kept women from serving in leadership roles, etc.

Do some reject Christian morality? Of course some do. Do or have Christians rejected Christian morality and claim to be Christian? Undoubtedly. You can't solely blame outside forces when internal forces do as much or even more harm.

Without doubt some of that is true but its so minor when compared to the worldwide and broad spread dedication by hundreds of millions to justify their attacks on Christianity. Which are truly just attempts at defending a decision they made to not believe in God or to accept Salvation and follow Christ's teachings. Intellectuals and organized education do conspire to teach this mistake as gospel.
Nobody is blaming solely outside forces.
As to exclusionary practices by Christians-- such must be the case, for dilution of faith and truth is an easy(an often attempted) means of destroying both!


Sorry, my time now is so very limited--more later , if warranted....-Tyr

[fj1200]

Without doubt some of that is true but its so minor when compared to the worldwide and broad spread dedication by hundreds of millions to justify their attacks on Christianity. Which are truly just attempts at defending a decision they made to not believe in God or to accept Salvation and follow Christ's teachings. Intellectuals and organized education do conspire to teach this mistake as gospel.
Nobody is blaming solely outside forces.
As to exclusionary practices by Christians-- such must be the case, for dilution of faith and truth is an easy(an often attempted) means of destroying both!


Sorry, my time now is so very limited--more later , if warranted....-Tyr

Yes, yes, the argument of the unnamed globalists, etc. attacking Christianity. And your arguments center almost completely on outside forces as you don't acknowledge issues within Christianity. Nevertheless the Christianity you see IMO sees anything outside as dilution; You make a false argument of purity if faith is not centered on truth. There are countless examples of where exclusionary practices were followed to the detriment of Christianity.

IMO there are countless former Christians not because of the vast conspiracy but because society has changed and people don't see the church as the center of life. I think that's unfortunate and hope it can be changed but it won't be changed if exclusionary practices persist.

[revelarts]

You're grabbing at evidence which supports your already derived conclusion. In some respects Christians have been their own worst enemies by creating a version which is exclusionary and purposely seeks to keep out any that don't agree with the beliefs of the people and not necessarily the tenets of the religion. This can be seen historically where the church, churches I should say, have at times supported slavery, supported segregation, kept women from serving in leadership roles, etc.

Do some reject Christian morality? Of course some do. Do or have Christians rejected Christian morality and claim to be Christian? Undoubtedly. You can't solely blame outside forces when internal forces do as much or even more harm.

Yes, yes, the argument of the unnamed globalists, etc. attacking Christianity. And your arguments center almost completely on outside forces as you don't acknowledge issues within Christianity. Nevertheless the Christianity you see IMO sees anything outside as dilution; You make a false argument of purity if faith is not centered on truth. There are countless examples of where exclusionary practices were followed to the detriment of Christianity.

IMO there are countless former Christians not because of the vast conspiracy but because society has changed and people don't see the church as the center of life. I think that's unfortunate and hope it can be changed but it won't be changed if exclusionary practices persist.

"Vast conspiracy"? c'mon.
I think part of the problem here is that when people talk about the change in culture from a more christian base to the secular we have now is that you can name names and groups that had have had influence but it's an overall THOUGHT TREND that moves through culture and is picked up by others and carried forward that's going on. There's no need for a formal "conspiracy". But the roots of the thought trend can be traced to the treason of certain intellectuals

even though some of the specific situations we have now is just the outgrowth of thought trending, still they have been some philosophers, scientist, and educators, and yes even powerful rich "philanthropist", and a host of rank and file anti-religious foot soldiers who have in fact and deliberately set about to try to set aside the Christian cultural base.
There's a long list of academics that can be quoted that have practically and overtly said outright they wanted to overthrow the Christian cultural base at various points. especially in the academic halls.
And if the leaders in politics, law, science, biz etc are trained in these same halls what do you think the mind set will be of these people the generation following?

The transition of the colleges and university from Christian based, rationally Socratic, and Locke leaning natural law positions to the Enlightenment leaning, Nietzsche like and Hegelian philosophical base where God is excluded by default can be documented, ---If you want me to post a much longer post. --- It doesn't mean it's been a "planned" event but it has been relentless.
Those who followed Enlightenment thinking down to Nietzsche and Hegel have deliberately removed the foundation of morals. and replaced it with thin air and hand waving.

But yes, TO OFTEN christians have NOT upheld the standards they say they embrace. and have twisted the words of scripture to defend thing that are indefensible. (this is admitted in the article BTW)
But on the other hand the very SAME scripture has been used properly to fight against many of the problems you mentioned.

Slavery was attacked morally the strongest by Christians in public life who understood that God created all men. And that modern slavery was not a Godly or right institution. One of the men in England most responsible for the abolition of slavery there was William Wilberforce. He was an upperclass person who before he had a Christian conversion did not care about slavery but afterwords was convince that God had called him to the purpose of the abolition of slavery in Britain. He became a member of parliament and worked for over 30 years on changing the laws and finally just before his death saw it done.

The link below is a VERY well done documentary on the abolitionist movement in the U.S. which points out that the moral public attack on slavery was Christian based and and christian lead.
The Abolitionists . American Experience . WGBH | PBS
Even though many Christians (and non christians) in the north and south were completely unmoved by the moral position.

Concerning woman's Roles in leadership.
First you have to go back to find out where in western history woman have ever had high standing? In Rome, in Greece? In the wilds or Germania? It wasn't until Christianity came to the front that women in the west in some cases where even considered HUMAN. And only following that came the woman's right's movement in the U.S. which were started by QUAKER women.

But as far as leadership roles go INSIDE the church and home. Yes, there are boundaries there that some scripture gives a broad OUTLINE of the parameters for. If some don't like it well, ok, whose right? the apostles or the new intellectuals?

But also as you say some INSIDE the Church have decided they they know better than God in various areas. These wolves in sheep's clothing have adopted the thinking of the enlightenment, Nietzsche and Hegel and brought it inside the Christian Seminaries no less. (one of the main reasons for the many denominational splits over the past 150 years) These people have AGREED with the destruction of the rational, moral foundations and the chucking of the Bible in favor of rootless "modern thought".

the Bibles ideas of marriage being just one place where many people who say they are Christians are now willing to compromise the scripture to agree with the current cultural trends and views on sex. It's all of a piece. These Christians may be SINCERE, but not realize they are NOT obeying God but are have been sucked into the cultural milieu created by "The treason of the intellectuals" over the past few hundred years.

[fj1200]

"Vast conspiracy"? c'mon.
I think part of the problem here is that when people talk about the change in culture from a more christian base to the secular we have now is that you can name names and groups that had have had influence but it's an overall THOUGHT TREND that moves through culture and is picked up by others and carried forward that's going on. There's no need for a formal "conspiracy". But the roots of the thought trend can be traced to the treason of certain intellectuals

even though some of the specific situations we have now is just the outgrowth of thought trending, still they have been some philosophers, scientist, and educators, and yes even powerful rich "philanthropist", and a host of rank and file anti-religious foot soldiers who have in fact and deliberately set about to try to set aside the Christian cultural base.
There's a long list of academics that can be quoted that have practically and overtly said outright they wanted to overthrow the Christian cultural base at various points. especially in the academic halls.
And if the leaders in politics, law, science, biz etc are trained in these same halls what do you think the mind set will be of these people the generation following?

The transition of the colleges and university from Christian based, rationally Socratic, and Locke leaning natural law positions to the Enlightenment leaning, Nietzsche like and Hegelian philosophical base where God is excluded by default can be documented, ---If you want me to post a much longer post. --- It doesn't mean it's been a "planned" event but it has been relentless.
Those who followed Enlightenment thinking down to Nietzsche and Hegel have deliberately removed the foundation of morals. and replaced it with thin air and hand waving.

But yes, TO OFTEN christians have NOT upheld the standards they say they embrace. and have twisted the words of scripture to defend thing that are indefensible. (this is admitted in the article BTW)
But on the other hand the very SAME scripture has been used properly to fight against many of the problems you mentioned.

Slavery was attacked morally the strongest by Christians in public life who understood that God created all men. And that modern slavery was not a Godly or right institution. One of the men in England most responsible for the abolition of slavery there was William Wilberforce. He was an upperclass person who before he had a Christian conversion did not care about slavery but afterwords was convince that God had called him to the purpose of the abolition of slavery in Britain. He became a member of parliament and worked for over 30 years on changing the laws and finally just before his death saw it done.

The link below is a VERY well done documentary on the abolitionist movement in the U.S. which points out that the moral public attack on slavery was Christian based and and christian lead.
The Abolitionists . American Experience . WGBH | PBS
Even though many Christians (and non christians) in the north and south were completely unmoved by the moral position.

Concerning woman's Roles in leadership.
First you have to go back to find out where in western history woman have ever had high standing? In Rome, in Greece? In the wilds or Germania? It wasn't until Christianity came to the front that women in the west in some cases where even considered HUMAN. And only following that came the woman's right's movement in the U.S. which were started by QUAKER women.

But as far as leadership roles go INSIDE the church and home. Yes, there are boundaries there that some scripture gives a broad OUTLINE of the parameters for. If some don't like it well, ok, whose right? the apostles or the new intellectuals?

But also as you say some INSIDE the Church have decided they they know better than God in various areas. These wolves in sheep's clothing have adopted the thinking of the enlightenment, Nietzsche and Hegel and brought it inside the Christian Seminaries no less. (one of the main reasons for the many denominational splits over the past 150 years) These people have AGREED with the destruction of the rational, moral foundations and the chucking of the Bible in favor of rootless "modern thought".

the Bibles ideas of marriage being just one place where many people who say they are Christians are now willing to compromise the scripture to agree with the current cultural trends and views on sex. It's all of a piece. These Christians may be SINCERE, but not realize they are NOT obeying God but are have been sucked into the cultural milieu created by "The treason of the intellectuals" over the past few hundred years.

A couple of points: I said it's NOT a vast conspiracy and I think we agree on many of the issues you mention. The church, some churches, have been influential in creating positive societal change; slavery, segregation, etc. I have a working theory though that the church for the most part has followed society and not led society. If/when it has led then I think it has led from a minority position within religion.

My argument here is that the "vast conspiracy" is used as a substitute for introspective thinking. I don't disagree that there have been intellectuals that have contributed to the trend but there are intellectuals on the other side that sought to stem the trend.

OTOH I feel bad for replying with few words to your many words.

[revelarts]

A couple of points: I said it's NOT a vast conspiracy and I think we agree on many of the issues you mention. The church, some churches, have been influential in creating positive societal change; slavery, segregation, etc. I have a working theory though that the church for the most part has followed society and not led society. If/when it has led then I think it has led from a minority position within religion.

My argument here is that the "vast conspiracy" is used as a substitute for introspective thinking. I don't disagree that there have been intellectuals that have contributed to the trend but there are intellectuals on the other side that sought to stem the trend.

OTOH I feel bad for replying with few words to your many words.

no problem on the word count.
like i say, i sometimes i write a lot just so that i'm not misunderstood.

I think you're right it has often been the minority opinion from within Religious/Church thought has been the most active in positive societal change. With the rest of the rank and file in the church and the wider society often muttering agreement and beginning to act in legal and moral ways on the surface to the higher moral standards but quietly uncomfortable with Godly principals.

it's human nature.
we all have Paul's problem
We love the moral laws with our minds but our hearts often want just want to do what it wants morals and intellectual honesty and society be hanged.
Or in worst cases we love that the moral laws are imposed on OTHERS but we want to get away with every moral issue WE have because it's "not really that bad".

And I think you're right that the churches have followed society... from time to time. but only seriously in the past 200-150 years it seems to me.
Before that from the middle ages on it's been Church at the lead all areas including science. To be sure again with the majority often unduly influenced by society and with christian to often behaving far below the declared Christian standards. But the minority breaking through bringing light and moral progress and securing the rational foundations of thinking.

[fj1200]

Or in worst cases we love that the moral laws are imposed on OTHERS but we want to get away with every moral issue WE have because it's "not really that bad".

Yup, we agree for the most part but you nailed it with the above.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

You're grabbing at evidence which supports your already derived conclusion. In some respects Christians have been their own worst enemies by creating a version which is exclusionary and purposely seeks to keep out any that don't agree with the beliefs of the people and not necessarily the tenets of the religion. This can be seen historically where the church, churches I should say, have at times supported slavery, supported segregation, kept women from serving in leadership roles, etc.

Do some reject Christian morality? Of course some do. Do or have Christians rejected Christian morality and claim to be Christian? Undoubtedly. You can't solely blame outside forces when internal forces do as much or even more harm.

The subject is not individual Christian purity or even purity of Christian churches, etc.
The subject is the treason of intellectuals and their overall commitment to destroy Christianity by false propaganda and deliberate cultural changes based solely upon a hate for Christian moral standards AND A SOCIETY BASED UPON THOSE STANDARDS.
And yes, globalists do exist and are an organized , extremely wealthy and politically powerful group effecting great change around the world.
To deny that fact either shows great ignorance or else deliberate deceit IMHO.
I did not just grab at anything. I did present an article to be discussed.
Here you jump to the defense of outside forces while trying to place blame on Christians themselves.
As if outside influences in society , culture, laws and regulations are willy nilly and none are designed to weaken and destroy Christianity--which is utterly absurd!--Tyr

[fj1200]

The subject is not individual Christian purity or even purity of Christian churches, etc.
The subject is the treason of intellectuals and their overall commitment to destroy Christianity by false propaganda and deliberate cultural changes based solely upon a hate for Christian moral standards AND A SOCIETY BASED UPON THOSE STANDARDS.
And yes, globalists do exist and are an organized , extremely wealthy and politically powerful group effecting great change around the world.
To deny that fact either shows great ignorance or else deliberate deceit IMHO.
I did not just grab at anything. I did present an article to be discussed.
Here you jump to the defense of outside forces while trying to place blame on Christians themselves.
As if outside influences in society , culture, laws and regulations are willy nilly and none are designed to weaken and destroy Christianity--which is utterly absurd!--Tyr

That's just a restatement of your position. Not much new there.

And the subject is Christian purity, or perception thereof, if a lack of Christian purity leads to what you blame on outside forces. But it's in your head so no competing arguments can fit.

[revelarts]

Clavin here represents the intellectuals and the training on ethics given in academia.
and Hobbs is the half hearted attempt by some to question the "new" irrational foundation of civilization where they claim no standards.

Christians and traditionalist DO claim a standard but often only hold to it and defend it selectively.
The new intellectuals assert there are NO STANDARDS and actively work to undermined the notions of the western standards derived from a christian foundation.

There's a real difference. with profound effect.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

That's just a restatement of your position. Not much new there.

And the subject is Christian purity, or perception thereof, if a lack of Christian purity leads to what you blame on outside forces. But it's in your head so no competing arguments can fit.

You blame the effects of the war waged against Christians as their fault because of their failures--when thats a RESULT not a CAUSE!!
As usual you have it backwards, which is why you pointing out lack of Christian purity in their failings is as wrong headed as one can be.
The effect of massive and powerful outside forces weakening Christians is not why the Intellectuals and Academia have chosen to deliberately attempt its destruction--rather its an obvious symptom of the chosen clash and indicative of some of its successes!
Trying to point out the imperfections of individual Christians as a cause of or valid justification for Intellectual treachery is ironically laughable.
For much of that is the "fruited results" garnered by those that target it for destruction.
Its like deliberately cutting your kid--then self-righteously and savagely beating that kid for bleeding!-Tyr

[fj1200]

You blame the effects of the war waged against Christians as their fault because of their failures--when thats a RESULT not a CAUSE!!
As usual you have it backwards, which is why you pointing out lack of Christian purity in their failings is as wrong headed as one can be.
The effect of massive and powerful outside forces weakening Christians is not why the Intellectuals and Academia have chosen to deliberately attempt its destruction--rather its an obvious symptom of the chosen clash and indicative of some of its successes!
Trying to point out the imperfections of individual Christians as a cause of or valid justification for Intellectual treachery is ironically laughable.
For much of that is the "fruited results" garnered by those that target it for destruction.
Its like deliberately cutting your kid--then self-righteously and savagely beating that kid for bleeding!-Tyr

It's nothing like that at all. Repetitively blaming some mysterious overarching organization for religion becoming less important to some people in modern society I think is giving up and avoids looking at other causes. I don't dispute that there are intellectuals who are more interested in raising up man than acknowledging a higher power but I do dispute the power that you attempt to give them. Do you dispute the imperfections of individual Christians? I don't and I can point to problems in almost any major denomination that drive people away from God than towards.

As for me I will give more power to God to be inclusive and to be an answer for all than to blame something that is weaker than God.