Is waterboarding torture?

[Black Diamond]

John McCain has been waterboarded. He says it's torture. Sean hannity says it's not, but he hasn't gone through the experience (even though he said he would).

[jimnyc]

Here's a 110 page thread that is similar.... http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=11148

And IMO, no, it's not torture. No physical harm is done. It sucks, and they think they are drowning, but it's simulated only. Scary as fuck, but to me scary does not equate to torture.

Funny thing is, that I pointed out many times, is that so many are against waterboarding - but it would be perfectly acceptable to shoot these scumbags right in their face out in the field. But leave them living? Fake them into believing they are drowning? Allow them to then leave and go to sleep, and wake up the next day? That's wrong. It's better to shoot them in the face a few times, and no one complains.

[Gunny]

Here's a 110 page thread that is similar.... http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=11148

And IMO, no, it's not torture. No physical harm is done. It sucks, and they think they are drowning, but it's simulated only. Scary as fuck, but to me scary does not equate to torture.

Funny thing is, that I pointed out many times, is that so many are against waterboarding - but it would be perfectly acceptable to shoot these scumbags right in their face out in the field. But leave them living? Fake them into believing they are drowning? Allow them to then leave and go to sleep, and wake up the next day? That's wrong. It's better to shoot them in the face a few times, and no one complains.

Think about who you're talking to. I got NO problem shooting them in the head. You'll find part of this discussion in the Veteran's thread. Those of that are warriors want to play war, not some psycho game dreamed up by some nerd in a lab. But back to my original comment .... for the time, manpower and money spent on it, it's inefficient.

And, as a reminder .. I am speaking of efficiency, not legality. Another reminder ... I'm going to make up all kinds shit and tell you everything but what I know. These fanatics are hardcore. They aren't giving you shit unless you get lucky and find the weak link. The time and resources used aren't worth finding that needle in the haystack.

[jimnyc]

Think about who you're talking to. I got NO problem shooting them in the head. You'll find part of this discussion in the Veteran's thread. Those of that are warriors want to play war, not some psycho game dreamed up by some nerd in a lab. But back to my original comment .... for the time, manpower and money spent on it, it's inefficient.

And, as a reminder .. I am speaking of efficiency, not legality. Another reminder ... I'm going to make up all kinds shit and tell you everything but what I know. These fanatics are hardcore. They aren't giving you shit unless you get lucky and find the weak link. The time and resources used aren't worth finding that needle in the haystack.

While I don't think it would always be efficient, and I agree some of the more knowledgeable and hardened terrorists might take the simulation and stay silent or lie. But I would waterboard all high value targets for awhile and gather as much as possible. Those folks stay separated. Keep at it for 6 months for all I care, and continue to compare the information divulged. Suppose there are only 20 of truly high value targets... I think after such a period they should be able to find similar information, or enough to at least have the intel agencies peek into it. I'm certainly not saying to go to war with every link they give out. Worst case? They lie. Then they get free water out of it, and yes, we wasted some time looking into what they divulged. While I personally would want to water all of them at Gitmo, I don't think a small handful of them would kill the resources. Hell, it took 10 years to find the pork eater. If there were 20 of them on the drinking list, looking into their information wouldn't set us back that much in comparison.

Plus it's just good clean fun for all.

[Trigg]

yes it's torture! Even though it doesn't cause harm.

The better question is IMHO......does it work?

[Gunny]

While I don't think it would always be efficient, and I agree some of the more knowledgeable and hardened terrorists might take the simulation and stay silent or lie. But I would waterboard all high value targets for awhile and gather as much as possible. Those folks stay separated. Keep at it for 6 months for all I care, and continue to compare the information divulged. Suppose there are only 20 of truly high value targets... I think after such a period they should be able to find similar information, or enough to at least have the intel agencies peek into it. I'm certainly not saying to go to war with every link they give out. Worst case? They lie. Then they get free water out of it, and yes, we wasted some time looking into what they divulged. While I personally would want to water all of them at Gitmo, I don't think a small handful of them would kill the resources. Hell, it took 10 years to find the pork eater. If there were 20 of them on the drinking list, looking into their information wouldn't set us back that much in comparison.

Plus it's just good clean fun for all.

What I don't like is this ... if you're going to torture them, them, cut to the chase, call it what it is and use a more effective means. All this political pretense is what gets me. It's torture, plain and simple. I ain't losing any sleep over it. I'm just pointing out the inefficiency.

[jimnyc]

What I don't like is this ... if you're going to torture them, them, cut to the chase, call it what it is and use a more effective means. All this political pretense is what gets me. It's torture, plain and simple. I ain't losing any sleep over it. I'm just pointing out the inefficiency.

Personally, I say they shoot them like 4-5 times out on the field. Bring them to Gitmo and patch them up, only a half assed job. Let them slowly get infected and die even slower. No torture, just lack of care and maybe a little giggling if any of them groan or scream while in pain. Would that be torture, or just shitty bedside skills?

[Motown]

Waterboarding isn't torture but it is uncomfortable. I'd like to avoid this argument by shooting maggots in the head when they are captured. Easy Peasy.

[aboutime]

To be as honest as I can here on this topic. NO, waterboarding is not torture. No more than the

"Crossing The Line" Initiations used by the Navy...before it became POLITICALLY INCORRECT, and WUSSIFIED by the whiners who didn't know, when they joined the navy....they'd have to go to sea???

Crossing the line...EQUATOR initiation was a long standing tradition which was never harmful...but more embarrassing to the POLYWOGS who dared to cross the line, and become SHELLBACKS.

All, or at least many of the former traditions of life have been taken away by those who think getting a score in any sport is UNFAIR to the team that doesn't SCORE.
We are all doomed to pure, perpetual IGNORANCE, and STUPIDITY.
Anyone who doubts this....just watch the responses.

[Gunny]

yes it's torture! Even though it doesn't cause harm.

The better question is IMHO......does it work?

THAT is my point. Torture has NEVER worked. It's been tried throughout the centuries and especially in the 13th and 14th centuries. It gets you someone telling you what you want to hear just to get you to stop. By then, they probably don't even know what the truth is. They're just making up crap.

As a Marine, I am personally against the method. I'd hate to be tortured because I'm so damned hard headed I don't see anything good coming out of it. But it has to be defined. Waterboarding is systematic torture over a period of time. As a Marine, I catch your ass on guard duty and I want info I'll put a K-Bar to your throat in a second to get ANY info that might keep my Marines alive. EVERYBODY goes home with ME. There's no politics involved in that. I'm accomplishing a mission.

That's the problem with some of these "political" conversations. I have a singular point of view: Accomplish the mission and bring everyone you left with back with you. Any and everything is secondary to THAT. I don't give a crap who voted for who and what the armchair quarterbacks are thinking and I don't even care what my f-ing OIC thing=ks -- I've overridden a dumbass order more than once. And guess WHO enlisted Marines listen to?

But this behind the scenes we're smarter than everyone else crap and we can get outdated or false info stuff just seems pointless to me. And anyone that volunteers to go anywhere and do anything for spooks needs a psych eval.

[Gunny]

To be as honest as I can here on this topic. NO, waterboarding is not torture. No more than the

"Crossing The Line" Initiations used by the Navy...before it became POLITICALLY INCORRECT, and WUSSIFIED by the whiners who didn't know, when they joined the navy....they'd have to go to sea???

Crossing the line...EQUATOR initiation was a long standing tradition which was never harmful...but more embarrassing to the POLYWOGS who dared to cross the line, and become SHELLBACKS.

All, or at least many of the former traditions of life have been taken away by those who think getting a score in any sport is UNFAIR to the team that doesn't SCORE.
We are all doomed to pure, perpetual IGNORANCE, and STUPIDITY.
Anyone who doubts this....just watch the responses.

I HATED shelback initiation. That was a bunch of stupid shit. But it's a rite of passage we all went through. I'm actually a golden shellback. Crossed the date line and the equator at the same time. Y'all squids can come up with some disgusting shit.

[Gunny]

Personally, I say they shoot them like 4-5 times out on the field. Bring them to Gitmo and patch them up, only a half assed job. Let them slowly get infected and die even slower. No torture, just lack of care and maybe a little giggling if any of them groan or scream while in pain. Would that be torture, or just shitty bedside skills?

Shoot their knees then have medical support standing by right in front of them, not doing a thing.

Put them on a chair on their toes where if their feet go down they hang themselves.

I'm just saying lets call it what it is.

[Gunny]

Waterboarding isn't torture but it is uncomfortable. I'd like to avoid this argument by shooting maggots in the head when they are captured. Easy Peasy.

No shit. Fuck all this dumb shit. A dead idiot is a good idiot.

[Elessar]

Shoot their knees then have medical support standing by right in front of them, not doing a thing.

Put them on a chair on their toes where if their feet go down they hang themselves.

I'm just saying lets call it what it is.

Don't shoot knees...do the feet and wrists first...

...then the ears...

...then the knees..

[Gunny]

Don't shoot knees...do the feet and wrists first...

...then the ears...

...then the knees..

You stomp on their instep. In combat boots. You want to see someone start whining like a little bitch?

I was just cutting to the chase. I hate wasting time.