Public Elementary School Caught Publicly Shaming Students Who Don’t Believe In God

[indago]

From the link:

“teachers have received educational training on their obligations not to promote religious beliefs in their classrooms and the Doe family has been financially compensated for harm they suffered.”

The school should not force religious beliefs on children, but.... the Doe family sounds like a bunch of whiners to me. The family has been "financially compensated for harm they suffered"? Looks like they took a page right out of the queers' book and demand to get compensated for having their feelings hurt.

Well, the lawyers have to get paid...

[indago]

Religious dogma should not be engaged in in the schools. There are churches all over town for that. They don't teach math in the churches, so don't do dogma in the schools...

[fj1200]

I'm going to skip the other bits and just comment here.

I think you miss one of the main points of what's under attack.
it's not the churches compassion or it's attendance.
but cultures ideas of what's foundationally TRUE or FALSE. What REAL and what UNREAL.
What's the basis of freedom, law, morals, rational thought and the universe.

There are plenty of churches that promote "compassion" and "kindness" but they do so while agreeing with the secular world in nearly every respect socially, philosophically, physiologically, scientifically and historically.
Leaving what for the churches and the Bible to address FJ?
Morals?
When the churches try to point out biblical morals people claim the church is too harsh and/or behind "the times" and finally they say that the churches have NO authority to encourage much less TELL others how to live.. on ANY issue.
Abortion, sexuality, marriage, divorce, political ethics, businesses ethics, social ethics, WHERE is Biblical morality is to be applied without someone crying foul? Or worse claiming it's "UNKIND" and 'NOT LIKE JESUS'?

I'd agree that the churches have given up the battles for WHAT IS REALITY here. While somehow wanting to hold onto some vague situationally pliable concepts of love and kindness taught --more or less-- by a man who they honestly consider a provincial middle eastern illegitimate Jewish man who died 2000 years ago. For whom myths arose about his rising from the dead. Myths which supposedly give these churches hope of some kind and compel them to a bit more "love". Heaven and Hell are just concepts of how things are earth. Evangelism is considered "mean". And "kindness and love" are the ONLY things to be taken seriously from the Bible and usually only used against Christians if they don't abide by what secularly MINDED christian and Non-Christians imagine that "love" means. Not what the old dusty book meant by it back in the olden days. The secularized academically astute Christian and generic Non-christian dismissALL aspects of Biblical teaching in favor of modern thought on every issue in every venue and somehow imagine no one's ATTACKED the "main" teachings. while completely forgetting how the old fashion Biblical POV used to be ubiquitous in western culture.

this is how far it's gone FJ.

I don't think the argument you've made above is necessarily in concert with your "conspiracy" charge. There is a lot up there that I can agree with but doesn't change my opinion. Has it gone far? Yes. Are teachings under attack? Yes, but I still disagree to the extent of how it's been influenced by a centralized group and not the other issues I've mentioned.

I'll take one issue you raised above; scientifically. You and I will both agree that the church was at the forefront of science centuries ago but that doesn't mean that someone who is a Young Earth Creationist is going to have support by society when science (by and large and I don't want to debate that with you) almost completely disagrees. I don't see the current viewpoint of science and all that goes with it as contrary to the story of God.

I will also generically say that the church needs to look at what is happening in society and look to the bible for guidance and also ask is the interpretation correct. The church has many times looked again to scripture to see what it says about women in leadership roles in church, segregation, slavery, etc. Just because we look back at an issue of the day and teachings are changed it doesn't mean what it's changed to is wrong.

[fj1200]

What other thread are you talking about? It looks like an interesting conversation and I'd like to check it out.

As for this thread though I think you guys are over thinking things. A cultural shift didn't have anything to do with this. The actions of the two teachers never would have been tolerated. I can't remember a time when shaming children and telling them their mother was evil would not have drawn a reaction from the parents and resulted in censure of the teachers.

The treason of the intellectuals & “The Undoing of Thought”

Yes, this thread has gone beyond its original basis.

[revelarts]

I don't think the argument you've made above is necessarily in concert with your "conspiracy" charge. There is a lot up there that I can agree with but doesn't change my opinion. Has it gone far? Yes. Are teachings under attack? Yes, but I still disagree to the extent of how it's been influenced by a centralized group and not the other issues I've mentioned.
I'll take one issue you raised above; scientifically. You and I will both agree that the church was at the forefront of science centuries ago but that doesn't mean that someone who is a Young Earth Creationist is going to have support by society when science (by and large and I don't want to debate that with you) almost completely disagrees. I don't see the current viewpoint of science and all that goes with it as contrary to the story of God.
I will also generically say that the church needs to look at what is happening in society and look to the bible for guidance and also ask is the interpretation correct. The church has many times looked again to scripture to see what it says about women in leadership roles in church, segregation, slavery, etc. Just because we look back at an issue of the day and teachings are changed it doesn't mean what it's changed to is wrong.

It seems were not quite communicating though.
you say you agree BUT don't agree. then give examples of WHY the Bible is wrong compared to science, and then say people's intereprations HAVE been wrong Before ... I your opinion... on at least 3 issues...
and, i guess ,you assume they are wrong again on some other modern issues.

But to me it's like you're sticking a pin in a ballon and letting air out slowly so it NOT REALLY an full on attack.


concerning different interpretations.
frankly I think you'd agree that the Bible is pretty clear in most areas. this is why some people have rejected it. BECAUSE they DO understand very WELL what it means once they've read it though and taken each passage in context. you make it sound as if every social, philosophical, physiological, scientific and historical issue that's in conflict with the modern views is mainly a case of people MISUNDERSTANDING or can be fixed RE-INTERPRETING the bible to fit todays mindset.

what i'm saying is that THAT is PART of the problem with the church. That IS part of the attack.

you mention slavery, but i think you'll acknowledge that slavery was ENDed in the west by people influenced by there Christians beliefs. Slavery was WORLD wide and mainly Under western Christian influence was it nearly removed from the world.

woman in leadership. I'm not sure woman should be a Pastor in a Church. the Bible is pretty clear on that. People take as if it's a Knock against woman. But in the old testament Only the family of Arron were allowed to be priest. and of those only one family was allowed to move the ark. Also God choose Abraham and his children to be the.. well... "chosen people". does that mean he this less of asians, of irish or africans or greeks? Have a selected group to minister is not a sign of "discrimination". But bottom line the question is it going to be obeyed or will we find a way to view it in light that more appealing to us?

segregation: there's nothing in the Bible that can honestly be construed to back-up southern U.S. segregation. One can cobble together a better case for woman preachers than for segregation of the races or racial supremacy.

each of situations you mention there were people MISUSING the Bible.
there are always people in church and culture that want to justify what they want and cherry pick a few verses and create a movement around it.

but certain things are clear if you take the WHOLE package in context. see what it says and leave it at that and work from there. one doesn't honestly get 2 dozens different views.

there may be 3 honest views based on the text and they probably will up with modern thing.


concerning the "conspiracy" as i've said i believe it's a conspiracy of ideas lead by various men in various times and places. but ultimately lead by corrupt spirits. I think you're ready to put to much blame on the bad apples of the church rather than the guys spraying feces, mold and worms over the church walls and village for a living.

[Gunny]

what i wrote is a rough laymen's attempt at a condensation of a few books into a paragraph or 2

You might think you can write but the jury's still out on your counting. That ain't 2 paragraphs I quoted. Maybe you need to come over and watch Sesame Street with the baby.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

The treason of the intellectuals & “The Undoing of Thought”

Yes, this thread has gone beyond its original basis.

Yep and you were just as wrong in that thread("The Treason of the Intellectuals & “The Undoing of Thought”) as you are in this one!
Even more so in that thread as you fixated on one symptom and tried to refute the premise of the article based upon that one grossly mistaken fallacy.-Tyr

[revelarts]

You might think you can write but the jury's still out on your counting. That ain't 2 paragraphs I quoted. Maybe you need to come over and watch Sesame Street with the baby.

i just re-read the last post i made and i had a rough time making it through some parts.
Sesame Street and the Electric Company might not be a bad idea. Maybe some sleep and editing time too.

[fj1200]

Yep and you were just as wrong in that thread("The Treason of the Intellectuals & “The Undoing of Thought”) as you are in this one!
Even more so in that thread as you fixated on one symptom and tried to refute the premise of the article based upon that one grossly mistaken fallacy.-Tyr

Mindless repetition is not an argument.

[fj1200]

It seems were not quite communicating though.
you say you agree BUT don't agree. then give examples of WHY the Bible is wrong compared to science, and then say people's intereprations HAVE been wrong Before ... I your opinion... on at least 3 issues...
and, i guess ,you assume they are wrong again on some other modern issues.

But to me it's like you're sticking a pin in a ballon and letting air out slowly so it NOT REALLY an full on attack.

I don't believe the bible is wrong compared to science. I think people can be wrong compared to science and they may point to the bible for reasoning. I think we both agree that people's interpretations have been wrong before. Is that a correct statement? If people's interpretations have been wrong before then they can be wrong again. We have varying interpretations currently within Christianity so why would one group be the specific one who is correct right now?

If Christians are the ones at the core who are disagreeing then it's not the outside forces that are sticking the pins in the balloon.

concerning different interpretations.
frankly I think you'd agree that the Bible is pretty clear in most areas. this is why some people have rejected it. BECAUSE they DO understand very WELL what it means once they've read it though and taken each passage in context. you make it sound as if every social, philosophical, physiological, scientific and historical issue that's in conflict with the modern views is mainly a case of people MISUNDERSTANDING or can be fixed RE-INTERPRETING the bible to fit todays mindset.

what i'm saying is that THAT is PART of the problem with the church. That IS part of the attack.

you mention slavery, but i think you'll acknowledge that slavery was ENDed in the west by people influenced by there Christians beliefs. Slavery was WORLD wide and mainly Under western Christian influence was it nearly removed from the world.

woman in leadership. I'm not sure woman should be a Pastor in a Church. the Bible is pretty clear on that. People take as if it's a Knock against woman. But in the old testament Only the family of Arron were allowed to be priest. and of those only one family was allowed to move the ark. Also God choose Abraham and his children to be the.. well... "chosen people". does that mean he this less of asians, of irish or africans or greeks? Have a selected group to minister is not a sign of "discrimination". But bottom line the question is it going to be obeyed or will we find a way to view it in light that more appealing to us?

segregation: there's nothing in the Bible that can honestly be construed to back-up southern U.S. segregation. One can cobble together a better case for woman preachers than for segregation of the races or racial supremacy.

each of situations you mention there were people MISUSING the Bible.
there are always people in church and culture that want to justify what they want and cherry pick a few verses and create a movement around it.

but certain things are clear if you take the WHOLE package in context. see what it says and leave it at that and work from there. one doesn't honestly get 2 dozens different views.

there may be 3 honest views based on the text and they probably will up with modern thing.

I do agree that the Bible is very clear in many areas and many will reject it because of that but that's not a conspiratorial rejection, it's a rejection based on not wanting to be held to a higher standard. In many cases people come back to the church because of family and that was a much more common path in the past than it is currently. But don't misunderstand; I don't want to "reinterpret" the bible, I suggest it should be read correctly. A long time ago a woman "should submit" but that very text is now read correctly IMO. FWIW, I don't mean to "make it sound" like that but it's just that we've only scratched the surface of some of those issues. For example, we disagree on gays but I'm guessing we don't disagree on sex before marriage. I think that is pretty clear and yes, people don't like that interpretation.

I know that we agree that there are situations where people misuse the bible and I think you're right that on the whole there are not two dozen different views but if you drill down into a particular issue then you may get many more views; but keep in mind that whole denominations are based upon those particular issues.

I'll tell you that I think I am very fortunate to be in the Sunday School class that I'm in, the main teacher and many of the others are/were seminary students who studied Hebrew and an "Old Testament Scholar" who's moved on to greener pastures BTW, so please understand that I don't come to my beliefs and opinions haphazardly. It is very considered.

concerning the "conspiracy" as i've said i believe it's a conspiracy of ideas lead by various men in various times and places. but ultimately lead by corrupt spirits. I think you're ready to put to much blame on the bad apples of the church rather than the guys spraying feces, mold and worms over the church walls and village for a living.

I suppose that's a difference of opinion (I can agree with corrupt spirits though) but I will tend to make the assertion that the church united in common spirit, honestly seeking the Kingdom, being open to every man, will win out. But don't forget modern society being very different from even 1950's America, for example.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Mindless repetition is not an argument.

Then why do you so happily engage in it so often? -Tyr

[fj1200]

Then why do you so happily engage in it so often? -Tyr

You're going with, "I know you are but what am I?" Impressive.

[Gunny]

I s anyone even supposed to know WTF y'all are talking about?

[fj1200]

I s anyone even supposed to know WTF y'all are talking about?

Nope, just us.

[Gunny]

Nope, just us.

I guess. Crap, I got lost by this morning.