Clinton wants all U.S. troops out of Iraq when Bush leaves office

[CSM]

if you are suggesting that we should let enlisted personnel in the armed forces have a veto power over our nation's foreign policy, I think that is absurd in the extreme.

No, only officers are smart enough to have that power. They and the MSM, along with folks like Cindy Sheehan should be the ONLY ones with any say. In fact, we should not allow enlisted personnel to vote either!

34K Iraq civilians died violent deaths last year. Guess how many violent deaths there were in the US last year! Things are not going well. Gates says they are not going well. Petraeus said they are not going well...Bush said they are not going well..... Cheney and you and the rest of the stepford conservatives on here seem to think differently. Why am I not surprised?

I have intentionally tried to stay out of the running gun battle between some Officer/Enlisted vets because it think it is a huge waste of time. However, whenever anyone suggests that enlisted service folks are stupid or in any way second class or imply such, they need to be taken to task.

Enlisted servicemen and women have every right to their opinion; as much right as every single anti-war protestor and MSM talking head and politician. And yes, even as much right to their opinion as retired Navy commanders! Yes, they even have as much right to vote as any other citizen in this country.

[Pale Rider]

There WERE no terrorists fighting in Iraq before we deposed Saddam. He HATED the fundies.

What difference does that make? None. They're there now. Lets fight them.

She does't want Bush to "surrender". She wants him not to dump his mistakes on his successor. I think that's fair. The whole cut and run argument is disingenuous at best, intentionally inflammatory at worst. It is meant to create a barrier to discussion about the incompetence shown in the handling of every aspect of this misadventure.

So you have another name for tucking tail and running other than surrender. Go ahead and use it. I'll still call it surrender. Would you prefer "lose and run" as opposed to "cut and run". Either way, no matter what you call it, you liberals want us to surrender.

War is tricky business. It's dynamic and ever changing. A standing army has to be versital and able to adapt. It would appear you have little military knowledge, or you'd know that. Mistakes have been made in the handling of this war, but this is a new kind of war, and a new kind of enemy. We're learning. New stratogies need to be formulated. New counter measures need to be implemented. No one deny's that. Not even the president himself. But just "up and leaving the battlefield" right now would be the greatest mistake this country has EVER made. It pains me that you liberals can't see that. You INIVITE more terrorist activity with that sort of defeatist attitude.

God help us if you people ever get back in the White House. There won't be a safe place on earth.

[retiredman]

Sure what would a bunch of enlisted men know about what's going on in iraq? Or fighting a war? Only officers would have any idea about such things. After all enlisted men are just ignorant morons with no education. bin kerry says so.

34k iraqi's died last year. If we pull out even more will die as the savages are turned loose. Too me that's just more dead muslims, which is a good thing. But for someone like you who is a muslim lover and so incensed that innocents are being killed should be completely against a pull out of the troops.

now now now.... let's try not to get personal here... calling me a "muslim lover" is pretty insulting and out of bounds.... no...wait...I'm sorry.... I take that back...you're the conservative and I'M the liberal.... so therefore, it is perfectly OK thing for YOU to say.... I am getting the hang of this place.

Are you suggesting that, before D-Day, Ike took a poll of his enlisted troops and formulated his normandy invasion strategy based upon their input?

you all need to get over this "terrorists are killing the innocent iraqis" story. It is a civil war. From dictionary.com
civil war –noun a war between political factions or regions within the same country.

This is indiginous sunnis fighting indiginous shiites. It's a civil war. We have no role to play other than prolonging and exacerbating.

[avatar4321]

now now now.... let's try not to get personal here... calling me a "muslim lover" is pretty insulting and out of bounds.... no...wait...I'm sorry.... I take that back...you're the conservative and I'M the liberal.... so therefore, it is perfectly OK thing for YOU to say.... I am getting the hang of this place.

Are you suggesting that, before D-Day, Ike took a poll of his enlisted troops and formulated his normandy invasion strategy based upon their input?

you all need to get over this "terrorists are killing the innocent iraqis" story. It is a civil war. From dictionary.com
civil war –noun a war between political factions or regions within the same country.

This is indiginous sunnis fighting indiginous shiites. It's a civil war. We have no role to play other than prolonging and exacerbating.

So which indiginous faction are the Iranian troops in?

[Pale Rider]

now now now.... let's try not to get personal here... calling me a "muslim lover" is pretty insulting and out of bounds.... no...wait...I'm sorry.... I take that back...you're the conservative and I'M the liberal.... so therefore, it is perfectly OK thing for YOU to say.... I am getting the hang of this place.

Are you suggesting that, before D-Day, Ike took a poll of his enlisted troops and formulated his normandy invasion strategy based upon their input?

you all need to get over this "terrorists are killing the innocent iraqis" story. It is a civil war. From dictionary.com
civil war –noun a war between political factions or regions within the same country.

This is indiginous sunnis fighting indiginous shiites. It's a civil war. We have no role to play other than prolonging and exacerbating.

It's the Iranian backed insurgents that have incited the waring factions, and also the ones that are perpetuating it.

[Pale Rider]

now now now.... let's try not to get personal here... calling me a "muslim lover" is pretty insulting and out of bounds....

Muslim lover isn't bad. Had he called you a radical islamist jihadist apologist, that would different.

In any case, it gives you the opportunity to clarify your position regarding islam.

[retiredman]

No, only officers are smart enough to have that power. They and the MSM, along with folks like Cindy Sheehan should be the ONLY ones with any say. In fact, we should not allow enlisted personnel to vote either!
then you are saying something I certainly don't agree with

34K Iraq civilians died violent deaths last year. Guess how many violent deaths there were in the US last year!

34K in a country whose total population is 28M. Are you suggesting that, if we had a little sectarian problem here in America...a little north versus south or liberal versus conservative or caucasian versus all the other races.... and that little sectarian problem resulted in 360 THOUSAND Americans dying last year of violent deaths directly resulting from that sectarian conflict, are you suggesting that wouldn't be a CIVIL WAR?

However, whenever anyone suggests that enlisted service folks are stupid or in any way second class or imply such, they need to be taken to task. You need to learn how to read the running context of a thread, buddy. avatar said:
"Obviously the troops think its going well or we wouldnt have record reenlistment. Shouldnt they be the ones who can tell if we are doing well?"

and I suggested that NO...they should NOT be the ones who tell us how to run a war.

Enlisted servicemen and women have every right to their opinion; as much right as every single anti-war protestor and MSM talking head and politician. And yes, even as much right to their opinion as retired Navy commanders! Yes, they even have as much right to vote as any other citizen in this country. I have never suggested otherswise.... I just do not think that we make our determinations as to how a military operation is doing in terms of meeting its objectives or furthering some strategic goal by polling the troops

[retiredman]

It's the Iranian backed insurgents that have incited the waring factions, and also the ones that are perpetuating it.

Iran backs the shiites. they are the majority of the population. This is a civil war.

[retiredman]

So which indiginous faction are the Iranian troops in?

Iranian TROOPS?

link please

[retiredman]

Muslim lover isn't bad. Had he called you a radical islamist jihadist apologist, that would different.

In any case, it gives you the opportunity to clarify your position regarding islam.

I know many muslims. I have lived amongst them in the middle east. The vast majority of muslims are peaceful kind and generous folks. They are as upset by the perversion of THEIR religion as we are.

[Pale Rider]

Iran backs the shiites. they are the majority of the population. This is a civil war.

Like I said, Iranian insurgents are inciting much of the violence. Yes it is a civil war. So what's the solution?

[Pale Rider]

I know many muslims. I have lived amongst them in the middle east. The vast majority of muslims are peaceful kind and generous folks. They are as upset by the perversion of THEIR religion as we are.

I believe that. I just wonder why, since the "majority" are peace loving, don't condem the actions of the militant jihadist muslims.

[jillian]

Like I said, Iranian insurgents are inciting much of the violence. Yes it is a civil war. So what's the solution?

Either they make a political deal or blow each other up. Solves the problem.

[retiredman]

I believe that. I just wonder why, since the "majority" are peace loving, don't condem the actions of the militant jihadist muslims.

yeah....kinda like the town's librarian and dentist and cobbler and grocer and kindergarten teacher standing up to the armed gang of hell's angels that roared into town.

[Gaffer]

now now now.... let's try not to get personal here... calling me a "muslim lover" is pretty insulting and out of bounds.... no...wait...I'm sorry.... I take that back...you're the conservative and I'M the liberal.... so therefore, it is perfectly OK thing for YOU to say.... I am getting the hang of this place.

Are you suggesting that, before D-Day, Ike took a poll of his enlisted troops and formulated his normandy invasion strategy based upon their input?

you all need to get over this "terrorists are killing the innocent iraqis" story. It is a civil war. From dictionary.com
civil war –noun a war between political factions or regions within the same country.

This is indiginous sunnis fighting indiginous shiites. It's a civil war. We have no role to play other than prolonging and exacerbating.

I call a spade a spade.

There are a bunch of thugs supported by iran and syria that are making attacks on innocent people in order to create a civil war. al queda is doing the same thing. They are out to create a civil war and bring down the new government. There is no civil war be waged there. Based on the very definition you provided. There are no sunni and shea armies engaged in combat. The only ones being targeted are the people going about their daily lives. And as long as the American troops are there there will be no civil war.

The civil war will start when we leave.