Political Cartoons

[Kathianne]

I don't know Pfleger.
But i'm always curious when people bring up CONCERN about "Black on Black" crime or gang related crime.
Personally i know Black churches and other Black civic groups and black businesses, activist and educators have worked on that issue for decades in various areas to various degrees of success. and little press.

But many repeatedly complain AS IF it's never addressed.

But here are the questions i have.
How many of the Blacks who beat and killed other innocent blacks were PAID, TRAINED and ARMED by local, state and federal gov'ts Kath?
Shouldn't there be a Higher standard of comparison for Professional police abuse/murder than to the abuses/murders by street criminals?
Aren't police paid to DO the opposite of Street Gangs?
If doctors abused and killed LESS than Gangs does that mean no one should try to get serious medical reform in place if we see over and over again Doctors on video harming/murdering people... often in poor ethnic areas?



.
.
..
.

Here's my problem, if the Churches and communities are constantly dealing with cleaning up the gangs why hasn't there been some movement? Hasn't been just this year or decade? Not quite sure why you are saying gangs are funded and trained by government, most shooting wild are under 17.

Your choice of pic? Spot on. The socioeconomic differences play a much larger role imo, than race.

[Kathianne]

Oh, Fr. Phleger:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Pfleger

He has done a lot for his community, but truly thinks he's black. I guess he is more than say, Bill Clinton.

[revelarts]

Here's my problem, if the Churches and communities are constantly dealing with cleaning up the gangs why hasn't there been some movement? Hasn't been just this year or decade? Not quite sure why you are saying gangs are funded and trained by government, most shooting wild are under 17.

As mentioned the success has been different in different areas. and from what i've seen it takes a combination of factors.
ONE of which is a police force that works WITH the community and doesn't see it as place to be "a warrior" but a place to be a guardian, if not a neighbor.

BTW how many groups do you know of addressing the violence problem? Any solutions? Frankly all i ever hear from the right are complaints about it.
And calls/support for cops to kill and lock-up more blacks... "poor".

And when cops kill people ... All Lives matter... NOTHING is suppose to change about the way cops do biz or are NOT held accountable like other citizens.
It's NEVER a problem to be addressed. no matter how many they kill/abuse/harass.

[Kathianne]

As mentioned the success has been different in different areas. and from what i've seen it takes a combination of factors.
ONE of which is a police force that works WITH the community and doesn't see it as place to be "a warrior" but a place to be a guardian, if not a neighbor.

BTW how many groups do you know of addressing the violence problem? Any solutions? Frankly all i ever hear from the right are complaints about it.
And calls/support for cops to kill and lock-up more blacks... "poor".

And when cops kill people ... All Lives matter... NOTHING is suppose to change about the way cops do biz or are NOT held accountable like other citizens.
It's NEVER a problem to be addressed. no matter how many they kill/abuse/harass.

I don't know about the 'right,' but I know I've always been in favor of getting rid of bad police, teachers, politicians. What is happening now is not going to result in more 'concerned' police or community policing or much policing besides protecting those picking up the bodies. It's not the blacks, gangs or not from the suburbs getting killed in significant numbers, but the poor. As always.

The defunding that is now going on; the attacks on police are not going to have positive results for any, most especially the poor-those that deserve the protection and especially those who are terrorizing the neighborhoods.

The police aren't so much in existence to protect the victims from the criminals; but to protect the criminals from the citizenry. Check out increasing gun sales-and those are what's known legally.

[SassyLady]

I don't know Pfleger.
But i'm always curious when people bring up CONCERN about "Black on Black" crime or gang related crime.
Personally i know Black churches and other Black civic groups and black businesses, activist and educators have worked on that issue for decades in various areas to various degrees of success. and little press.

But many repeatedly complain AS IF it's never addressed.

But here are the questions i have.
How many of the Blacks who beat and killed other innocent blacks were PAID, TRAINED and ARMED by local, state and federal gov'ts Kath?
Shouldn't there be a Higher standard of comparison for Professional police abuse/murder than to the abuses/murders by street criminals?
Aren't police paid to DO the opposite of Street Gangs?
If doctors abused and killed LESS than Gangs does that mean no one should try to get serious medical reform in place if we see over and over again Doctors on video harming/murdering people... often in poor ethnic areas?



.
.
..
.

I don't speak for Kath, but I think we want to know why BLM isn't more vocal about black on black crime. Why aren't rioters burning down Chicago?

[revelarts]

I don't know about the 'right,' but I know I've always been in favor of getting rid of bad police, teachers, politicians. What is happening now is not going to result in more 'concerned' police or community policing or much policing besides protecting those picking up the bodies. It's not the blacks, gangs or not from the suburbs getting killed in significant numbers, but the poor. As always.

The defunding that is now going on; the attacks on police are not going to have positive results for any, most especially the poor-those that deserve the protection and especially those who are terrorizing the neighborhoods.

The police aren't so much in existence to protect the victims from the criminals; but to protect the criminals from the citizenry. Check out increasing gun sales-and those are what's known legally.

I've posted on this site Since W Bush. and I've posted about problems with police here -off & on- from that time. When i became generally conservative I talked with other right/conservatives about the police issues
And basically was generally ignored or called a cop hater.
No reforms proposed, NONE even seen as needed. It's just "a few" bad cops here and there. who rarely get disciplined, fired much less jailed. But there's always been blankent Support for police from the right/consiervatives since my travells with them.

NOW the lids blown off and people aren't just calling for "reform" but "defunding" and people of the right/conservatives/pick-your-label are SHOCKED SHOCKED that people are upset with policing.
And somehow... STILL just want to get rid of bad apples... but somehow rarely do it. So that Cops like the one that killed Floyd had 18 previous complaints and was TRAINING other cops.

Kath, I've NEVER advocated defunding the police, and i suspect that most people like myself who've LONG held that policing in the U.S. has had real problems and should be MUCH BETTER don't really want wholesale defunding.
But at this point it seems that people of the right/conservative/Pick-your-label STILL don't see ANY problem with police in general, and simply want to defend the status quo.
Where's the middle ground. Do you simply want to complain about the extreme or is there room to move, to acknowledge problems... and actually support some real reform?

I'm not sure how the right/conservative/Pick-your-label expects "bad apples" to be dealt with if police supporters for decades refuse to even hear complaints and or regularly deny any police wrong doing individually and especially corporately. Whether the complaints are as framed as police corruption, racism, class based or gov't authoritarianism. It seems the raw support for police is blindly and steadfastly maintained.

[Kathianne]

I've posted on this site Since W Bush. and I've posted about problems with police here -off & on- from that time. When i became generally conservative I talked with other right/conservatives about the police issues
And basically was generally ignored or called a cop hater.
No reforms proposed, NONE even seen as needed. It's just "a few" bad cops here and there. who rarely get disciplined, fired much less jailed. But there's always been blankent Support for police from the right/consiervatives since my travells with them.

NOW the lids blown off and people aren't just calling for "reform" but "defunding" and people of the right/conservatives/pick-your-label are SHOCKED SHOCKED that people are upset with policing.
And somehow... STILL just want to get rid of bad apples... but somehow rarely do it. So that Cops like the one that killed Floyd had 18 previous complaints and was TRAINING other cops.

Kath, I've NEVER advocated defunding the police, and i suspect that most people like myself who've LONG held that policing in the U.S. has had real problems and should be MUCH BETTER don't really want wholesale defunding.
But at this point it seems that people of the right/conservative/Pick-your-label STILL don't see ANY problem with police in general, and simply want to defend the status quo.
Where's the middle ground. Do you simply want to complain about the extreme or is there room to move, to acknowledge problems... and actually support some real reform?

I'm not sure how the right/conservative/Pick-your-label expects "bad apples" to be dealt with if police supporters for decades refuse to even hear complaints and or regularly deny any police wrong doing individually and especially corporately. Whether the complaints are as framed as police corruption, racism, class based or gov't authoritarianism. It seems the support for police is blindly and steadfastly maintained.

What I think has been said is that most police, over 90% are decent people doing their best. I think it would be a safe assumption that some 'bad' cops, even racist cops, went into those towers on 9/11. There's plenty of blacks that are also racists, like those yelling, 'whitey' in the faces of black cops.

Now with all those negatives going on in our society, it's still a small number of either group that would actually 'act' on their hatred, like the MN cop did on George Floyd. Those small numbers though are societal killers. There are cops that need more training. There are unions that need to have change in leadership-actively working to rid their numbers of the haters and discouraging any cops that protect them. Look at the skin color of the cops charged with aiding in the murder of Floyd-hint, it's a rainbow.

What do gangs provide for their members? Doesn't matter if black, Chinese, Hispanic, white, or Mafia. What do the members get that they can't by legal means? Look at those underlying causes. Money? Prestige? Security/Protection? Family?

What are the underlying causes of poverty? Family? Importance of education?

How are these underlying causes to be addressed? Money? Community? Police? Social Workers? Schools? Committees?

There's a whole lotta things wrong and not just for poor blacks, but for the poor in general. So, when? Who? How? Does anyone really want to address these?

So much easier to blame the police. They're just now getting dumped on like teachers have been for decades now, tasked with making 'everything alright' through education. How's that been working out?

Related:

https://hotair.com/archives/ed-morri...-maybe-racist/

[revelarts]

What I think has been said is that most police, over 90% are decent people doing their best. I think it would be a safe assumption that some 'bad' cops, even racist cops, went into those towers on 9/11. There's plenty of blacks that are also racists, like those yelling, 'whitey' in the faces of black cops.

Now with all those negatives going on in our society, it's still a small number of either group that would actually 'act' on their hatred, like the MN cop did on George Floyd. Those small numbers though are societal killers. There are cops that need more training. There are unions that need to have change in leadership-actively working to rid their numbers of the haters and discouraging any cops that protect them. Look at the skin color of the cops charged with aiding in the murder of Floyd-hint, it's a rainbow.

What do gangs provide for their members? Doesn't matter if black, Chinese, Hispanic, white, or Mafia. What do the members get that they can't by legal means? Look at those underlying causes. Money? Prestige? Security/Protection? Family?

What are the underlying causes of poverty? Family? Importance of education?

How are these underlying causes to be addressed? Money? Community? Police? Social Workers? Schools? Committees?

There's a whole lotta things wrong and not just for poor blacks, but for the poor in general. So, when? Who? How? Does anyone really want to address these?

So much easier to blame the police. They're just now getting dumped on like teachers have been for decades now, tasked with making 'everything alright' through education. How's that been working out?

Related:

https://hotair.com/archives/ed-morri...-maybe-racist/

90% is an assumption.
And again it assumes, by default, that various Law enforcement systems and orgs are not tainted with corruption, racism, class bias or governmental authoritarian overreach.
And that the police in Pleasantville Wisconsin are the same as the police in L.A. or NewYorkCity.

And it's a strawman to claim that All problems of blacks or anyone else are solely the fault of police. I've mentioned twice now that various community groups/orgs have and ARE addressing other issues.
but some folks continue to want to toss other black/poor/all lives issues up as a smoke screen to NOT address police problems.
why?
as i said I've talked about police problems for over 30 years and just now some places are taking a look.
While some somehow want people to DROP police complaints to shift the focus exclusively to "gang violence" and broken homes? really?

If a house has termites and has Plumbing leaks and the professional paid plumbers ADD 2 leaks for every 2.5 they fix. it doesn't help to constantly complain about the supposedly unaddressed termite problem.
If one part of the household is focused on the getting the plumbers strait and others are working with exterminators, then what's the problem Kath?
The paid plumbers are doing a CRAP job. and they CAN do better. And if they do their job well, it de-stresses the whole house and it makes it easier to deal with the termite problem AS WELL.
No one is BLAMING the plumbers for the termites. And if some stray voices are, then they can be ignored. Just focus on getting good plumbers and what they CAN fix. And don't pretend that it's a minor problem.
No need to complain about those that misplace blame if the real goal is to get the WHOLE house fixed. Reasonable people need to be honest about all the problems and who can deal best with the various issues.
BS finger pointing and smoke screening to cover for the plumbers issues helps no one.

[Kathianne]

90% is an assumption.
And again it assumes, by default, that various Law enforcement systems and orgs are not tainted with corruption, racism, class bias or governmental authoritarian overreach.
And that the police in Pleasantville Wisconsin are the same as the police in L.A. or NewYorkCity.

And it's a strawman to claim that All problems of blacks or anyone else are solely the fault of police. I've mentioned twice now that various community groups/orgs have and ARE addressing other issues.
but some folks continue to want to toss other black/poor/all lives issues up as a smoke screen to NOT address police problems.
why?
as i said I've talked about police problems for over 30 years and just now some places are taking a look.
While some somehow want people to DROP police complaints to shift the focus exclusively to "gang violence" and broken homes? really?

If a house has termites and has Plumbing leaks and the professional paid plumbers ADD 2 leaks for every 2.5 they fix. it doesn't help to constantly complain about the supposedly unaddressed termite problem.
If one part of the household is focused on the getting the plumbers strait and others are working with exterminators, then what's the problem Kath?
The paid plumbers are doing a CRAP job. and they CAN do better. And if they do their job well, it de-stresses the whole house and it makes it easier to deal with the termite problem AS WELL.
No one is BLAMING the plumbers for the termites. And if some stray voices are, then they can be ignored. Just focus on getting good plumbers and what they CAN fix. And don't pretend that it's a minor problem.
No need to complain about those that misplace blame if the real goal is to get the WHOLE house fixed. Reasonable people need to be honest about all the problems and who can deal best with the various issues.
BS finger pointing and smoke screening to cover for the plumbers issues helps no one.

Fine, looks like no discussion happening. I'm not really fine with that, but what can be done about it?

[revelarts]

Fine, looks like no discussion happening. I'm not really fine with that, but what can be done about it?

We agree that police are not the only problem of the poor or black.
do really want to discuss those issues when i' brought up police problems. no.
I don't want to talk about the fringe BS hypocrisy of the BLM org.
as i mentioned i've TRIED to get a discussion going about police problems with the right and conservatives for 30 years and ALWAYS the discussion is sidetracked or minimized.
and often my complaints and calls for reform and justice are considered "Hate".
And here when there's an opportunity to crack the door and really sift though THAT issue it seems to me many people are using the extremes and the political MSM sideshow to again ignore and minimize the problems.

If you look at my complaints about poor policing in the past and here you'll see that I do NOT lay the blame at simply race or racism. for the perps or victims.
it's Strawman to assume that it's my only concern. But i do NOT think that the term Black Lives Matter is misnomer. it addresses part of the problem. Like Breast cancer is ONE kind of cancer.
I've mentioned twice now.
4 problems with policing:
•corruption
•racism (lets call it racial bias)
•class bias
•governmental authoritarian overreach
and I'll add since you mentioned it
•ineffective/counterproductive or lack of training (which could have been fed into by any of the 4 above.)

"bad apples" can participate is any ONE of those and be a problem or they can act on a combination of any of those.
Law enforcement systems at the local level and up can as well. From laws to policing to prosecution.

Do you want to discuss the possibility of problems of policing being beyond 10% random bad apples?
And options for addressing those problems.

You said,
"There are cops that need more training."
Agreed!

"There are unions that need to have change in leadership-actively
working to rid their numbers of the haters and discouraging any cops that protect them."
Technically it's not the unions Job to do that. the cities pay for police and are the bosses.
It's the cities job not to be held hostage to unions on issues of conduct.
And if they are, then Firing them all may be the ONLY way out. If ?% bad apples are covered for by the union or most of "their brothers".
the saying is bad apples spoil the whole bunch.
..

[Kathianne]

We agree that police are not the only problem of the poor or black.
do really want to discuss those issues when i' brought up police problems. no.
I don't want to talk about the fringe BS hypocrisy of the BLM org.
as i mentioned i've TRIED to get a discussion going about police problems with the right and conservatives for 30 years and ALWAYS the discussion is sidetracked or minimized.
and often my complaints and calls for reform and justice are considered "Hate".
And here when there's an opportunity to crack the door and really sift though THAT issue it seems to me many people are using the extremes and the political MSM sideshow to again ignore and minimize the problems.

If you look at my complaints about poor polcing in the past you'll and here I do NOT lay the blame at simply race. for the perps or victims.
it's Strawman to assume that it's my only concern.
I've mentioned twice now.
4 problems:
•corruption
•racism (lets call it racial bias)
•class bias
•governmental authoritarian overreach
and I'll add since you mentioned it
•ineffective/counterproductive or lack of training (which could have been fed into by any of the 4 above.)

"bad apples" can participate is any ONE of those and be a problem or they can act on a combination of any of those.
Law enforcement systems at the local level and up can as well. From laws to policing to prosecution.

Do you want to discuss the possibility of problems of policing being beyond 10% random bad apples?
And options for addressing those problems.

You said,
"There are cops that need more training."
Agreed!

"There are unions that need to have change in leadership-actively
working to rid their numbers of the haters and discouraging any cops that protect them."
Technically it's not the unions Job to do that. the cities pay for police and are the bosses.
It's the cities job not to be held hostage to unions on issues of conduct.
And if they are, then Firing them all may be the ONLY way out. If ?% bad apples are protected and covered for who participate in any of the 4 mentioned problems.
the saying is bad apples spoil the bunch.
..

There's no doubt that you and I are not going to find agreement regarding % or certainly that the solution would be firing 100% and hope for a better result down the road.

Years ago, when this was published, I posted on the old board this article and several times since:

https://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-M...holy-Alliance/

That is Chicago, which certainly fits all of your criteria about bad police, which is certainly not a good thing for the police there trying to do good. It's beyond depressing.

NYPD went through a period where they seemed to have more or less a clean department, but sure seems gone the way of the dodo pretty darn quick.

LA, Detroit, Baltimore have all been closer to the Chicago model.

Then there are the many more that not only have standards, but vigorously try to enforce them.

Like any other issue, there are many shades.

Pretty hard to have a conversation when one digs in and refuses to listen-whether it be from one perspective or another. We both have 'truths' of what we know first person, but we lack what the other person knows.

[revelarts]

There's no doubt that you and I are not going to find agreement regarding % or certainly that the solution would be firing 100% and hope for a better result down the road.

Years ago, when this was published, I posted on the old board this article and several times since:

https://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-M...holy-Alliance/

That is Chicago, which certainly fits all of your criteria about bad police, which is certainly not a good thing for the police there trying to do good. It's beyond depressing.

NYPD went through a period where they seemed to have more or less a clean department, but sure seems gone the way of the dodo pretty darn quick.

LA, Detroit, Baltimore have all been closer to the Chicago model.

Then there are the many more that not only have standards, but vigorously try to enforce them.

Like any other issue, there are many shades.

Pretty hard to have a conversation when one digs in and refuses to listen-whether it be from one perspective or another. We both have 'truths' of what we know first person, but we lack what the other person knows.

I'm not sure that I'm "dug in" I'm NOT saying that ALL cops MUST be fired, I've never said that. i think sometime people listen for the worse in what the other's say.
I agree with you and mentioned early that different police depts are in fact different.
One dept in one town may IN FACT have 99% great cops. while in another city it may be 50% with that 50% bad cops in charge and the "good cops" keeping their mouths shut just to survive the environment.

As far as persocal experience goes I know of a guy that had cops as brothers uncles and father he said that they were all great people ... "to him".
As long as they knew the the person they were dealing with they were wonderful kind fair etc.. if not they were bullies.

that was his personal experience.
I've had EXTREMELY good interactions with some cops and i've had some that were not so good. And the Accounts from my family, friends and neighbors about cops are MIXED but laced with warnings that no law abiding person should have to consider.
And, Like you, what i've read and watched in the news/studies about certain police depts and singular police show me more objectively that there are real heroes and real problems.
So my opinion is taken from BEYOND my personal sphere of experience. but it does ALIGN with it in many ways.

if there's evidence that some view i have is wrong or is not as complete as it should be, i think you know, i'm open to looking at it.
But frankly on this issue I've not found the same openness from many conservatives.
The line that "90+% of cops are good" comes across to me as a mantra that is not to be questioned. So the ideas like police "reform", retraining "deescalation", "community policing", "community oversight boards" even putting cameras on police, doesn't really make sense against the mantra, much less the option of cleaning house.
so deflections and denials, real and imagined, blaming only the liberals and... um "all lives"... for any police "mistakes".

But hey i'm not sure what i'm missing.
I not after "good cops".. may their tribe increase.
I'm just weary of hitting a wall of the idea that "most cops are basically good" so no one should ever complain. let the system work. When there's evidence that it often doesn't.

[Kathianne]

I'm not sure that I'm "dug in" I'm NOT saying that ALL cops MUST be fired, I've never said that. i think sometime people listen for the worse in what the other's say.
I agree with you and mentioned early that different police depts are in fact different.
One dept in one town may IN FACT have 99% great cops. while in another city it may be 50% with that 50% bad cops in charge and the "good cops" keeping their mouths shut just to survive the environment.

As far as persocal experience goes I know of a guy that had cops as brothers uncles and father he said that they were all great people ... "to him".
As long as they knew the the person they were dealing with they were wonderful kind fair etc.. if not they were bullies.

that was his personal experience.
I've had EXTREMELY good interactions with some cops and i've had some that were not so good. And the Accounts from my family, friends and neighbors about cops are MIXED but laced with warnings that no law abiding person should have to consider.
And, Like you, what i've read and watched in the news/studies about certain police depts and singular police show me more objectively that there are real heroes and real problems.
So my opinion is taken from BEYOND my personal sphere of experience. but it does ALIGN with it in many ways.

if there's evidence that some view i have is wrong or is not as complete as it should be, i think you know, i'm open to looking at it.

But frankly on this issue I've not found the same openness from many conservatives.
The line that "90+% of cops are good" comes across to me as a mantra that is not to be questioned. So the ideas like police "reform", retraining "deescalation", "community policing", "community oversight boards" even putting cameras on police, doesn't really make sense against the mantra, much less the option of cleaning house.
so deflections and denials, real and imagined, blaming only the liberals and... um "all lives"... for any police "mistakes".

But hey i'm not sure what i'm missing.
I not after "good cops".. may their tribe increase.
I'm just weary of hitting a wall of the idea that "most cops are basically good" so no one should ever complain. let the system work. When there's evidence that it often doesn't.

As I said, we all have our biases, by nature something that are hard to throw aside. You have yours, I have mine. Unless folks like us are willing to consider that sometimes we just have to listen and find someway to use what we know to look for change, I doubt we can expect the more extreme of our positions to ever get anywhere.

One thing I recognize is that in their haste to move against the President this election season, the media is all in on busting open on the police, leading from behind as it were. Actually championing the looting, burning, and civil unrest. No way would this happen under Obama. But, what it has done is to expose that the problems that you've cited for years are certainly real in at least many parts of the country. While mostly in 'big' cities, at least one county in GA seems to have the systemic problems that are being used against all police.

So yes, in spite of the unfairness of the media, what was hidden from many is now out in the open, if even exaggerated in the breadth of it.

[LongTermGuy]

[Kathianne]