Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

[Alter2Ego]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

The teaching of literal hellfire torment is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in flames of fire for all eternity—as punishment for wrongdoing committed during the relatively brief human lifespan. The hellfire dogma was brought into Christianity by the Roman Catholics who copied it from pagan religions. (Pagans are those who do not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.)

The Bible makes it clear as to how God views the ritual burning of people. Jehovah ended up rejecting the ancient Israelites after they got involved with pagan worship, which included burning their children to death.

"And they [the Israelites/sons of Judah] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that HAD NOT COME UP INTO MY HEART." (Jeremiah 7:31)


The scriptures indicate that hell is nothing more than mankind’s common grave. Proof of this is provided by a verse of scripture in the Bible, which no hellfire-believing Christian can explain away. I am referring to the scripture that says Jesus Christ--the epitome of a perfect, sinless, and obedient man--died and went to hell.

"{21} In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. {22} He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth." (1 Peter 2:21-22)


"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)



DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teaching of literal hellfire torment? If so, quote up to four (4) scriptures and include Bible book, chapter, and verse. Then bold or italicize or colorize the words within the quotations that you are focusing on, and explain why you believe the scriptures you present are talking about literal hellfire torment.


2. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did Jehovah command the ancient Israelites to burn anyone in the fire?


3. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did the burning of people come to God's heart?



4. According to those who believe in literal hellfire torment, hell is a place for people who are wicked. So why did Jesus spend three days in hell, considering what's said at 1 Peter 2:22?


5. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?


6. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in hell if they aren't even aware?


7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it, and follow the steps indicated at Question #1.


8. Those who believe in literal eternal torment say that the person's soul is being burned forever. What is the soul? Are animals souls also or is this only for humans?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

The teaching of literal hellfire torment is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in flames of fire for all eternity—as punishment for wrongdoing committed during the relatively brief human lifespan. The hellfire dogma was brought into Christianity by the Roman Catholics who copied it from pagan religions. (Pagans are those who do not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.)

The Bible makes it clear as to how God views the ritual burning of people. Jehovah ended up rejecting the ancient Israelites after they got involved with pagan worship, which included burning their children to death.

"And they [the Israelites/sons of Judah] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that HAD NOT COME UP INTO MY HEART." (Jeremiah 7:31)


The scriptures indicate that hell is nothing more than mankind’s common grave. Proof of this is provided by a verse of scripture in the Bible, which no hellfire-believing Christian can explain away. I am referring to the scripture that says Jesus Christ--the epitome of a perfect, sinless, and obedient man--died and went to hell.

"{21} In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. {22} He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth." (1 Peter 2:21-22)


"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)



DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teaching of literal hellfire torment? If so, quote up to four (4) scriptures and include Bible book, chapter, and verse. Then bold or italicize or colorize the words within the quotations that you are focusing on, and explain why you believe the scriptures you present are talking about literal hellfire torment.


2. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did Jehovah command the ancient Israelites to burn anyone in the fire?


3. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did the burning of people come to God's heart?



4. According to those who believe in literal hellfire torment, hell is a place for people who are wicked. So why did Jesus spend three days in hell, considering what's said at 1 Peter 2:22?


5. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?


6. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in hell if they aren't even aware?


7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it, and follow the steps indicated at Question #1.


8. Those who believe in literal eternal torment say that the person's soul is being burned forever. What is the soul? Are animals souls also or is this only for humans?

Hell is a bad place full of liberals that are so full of themselves.
So full it will explode and then the SWHTF.... with liberal parts and stupidity blown all over the place. lol

Seriously, Hell is just as real as is Heaven.
The bible warns of one(Hell) and promises of the other (Heaven).


The Bible contains an overwhelming amount of irrefutable evidence teaching that Hell is indeed a literal place of torment, where those who die in their sins without Jesus Christ are punished in flaming fire and vengeance by God (2nd Thessalonians 1:8,9).

Here are many Scriptures to consider...

Numbers 26:10…

“And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up together with Korah, when that company died, what time the fire devoured two hundred and fifty men: and they became a sign.”

Korah and the men who rebelled with him against Moses were swallowed into Hell beneath.


Psalm 9:17…

“The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.”

Carefully notice that "hell" here cannot merely mean "the grave" as some foolishly teach. For if "hell" only means the grave, then where do the righteous go? The Bible plainly teaches that the righteous and the wicked do NOT go to the same place. The wicked are turned into Hell; but the righteous unto life eternal.


Psalm 139:8…

“If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.”

The contrast here is between Heaven and Hell; not between Heaven and the grave. Also notice the interesting phrase... "If I make my bed in hell." Everyone who goes to Hell chooses to go there by rejecting Jesus as their Christ. It is sinful men who make their own bed in Hell. No sinner must go to Hell. The gift of eternal life is freely offered to all mankind through faith in Christ Jesus (John 14:6; Acts 10:43; Revelation 22:17).


Isaiah 5:14…

“Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.”

It wouldn't make any sense if "hell" merely meant the grave. What point would there be in condemning the wicked to hell if that's the same place where the righteous go? Clearly, Hell is a place only for the wicked who die in their sins. The righteous go to heaven to be with the Lord (2nd Corinthians 5:8).


Ezekiel 31:16…

“I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit…”

Clearly, this Scripture defines "hell" as being more than the grave. The Bible speaks about "descending into the pit." The Bible also speaks of being "cast into Hell," which clearly implies judgment from a holy God. If "hell" merely meant grave as Mormons, Jehovah's Witness and other false prophets teach, then God would have said that the righteous shall be cast into hell too; but the Bible NEVER says that anywhere!!! Only the wicked shall be cast into Hell, a bottomless pit, where Satan is called "the angel of the bottomless pit" (Revelation 9:11).


Matthew 5:28,29…

“But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.”

The Bible plainly teaches that all sinners are condemned to Hell. If "hell" simply means grave, then what harm or worry is there in fornicating, getting drunk, raping, murdering, partying with illegal drugs and committing all sorts of other sins? There would be none. If there is NO place of punishment in eternity, then there is NO justice for all the victims of crimes committed in this earthly life. So then what advantage is there to being righteous? If one believes that the Bible is God's Word, then you absolutely must believe that Hell is a literal place of torment and anguish, that burns with searing flames of fire and brimstone, where sinners are punished for their sins against a holy God.

[Alter2Ego]

Hell is a bad place full of liberals that are so full of themselves.
So full it will explode and then the SWHTF.... with liberal parts and stupidity blown all over the place. lol

Seriously, Hell is just as real as is Heaven.
The bible warns of one(Hell) and promises of the other (Heaven).


The Bible contains an overwhelming amount of irrefutable evidence teaching that Hell is indeed a literal place of torment, where those who die in their sins without Jesus Christ are punished in flaming fire and vengeance by God (2nd Thessalonians 1:8,9).

ALTER2EGO -to- TYR-ZIU SAXNOT:

No, it does not. None of your above verses are talking literal hellfire torment. Without context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters), one can isolate a few words and assign any preconceived meaning to them. That is exactly what you did with the examples above.

I will quote the context to each of your above verses as time permits. At Question 1 in my OP, I asked for only four (4) verses at a time from each person because it takes time for me to go through the verses and present the context.


When discussing religious doctrines, I try to avoid telling people my personal opinion. Instead, I let them get correction from the Bible itself by showing them the context.



I will start presenting context in the very next post.

[darin]

Religious people almost NEED eternal punishment to exist to validate their sacrifices. WRT Christianity specifically, because I am an expert in that faith (), I believe God 'losing' to the Devil is pretty sad. By Losing I mean - based on teaching received in the church more folks' souls will spend eternity in Hell than in Heaven. I wonder why God would give up the souls of those he's loved since the creation of time.

[Alter2Ego]

Seriously, Hell is just as real as is Heaven.
The bible warns of one(Hell) and promises of the other (Heaven).


The Bible contains an overwhelming amount of irrefutable evidence teaching that Hell is indeed a literal place of torment, where those who die in their sins without Jesus Christ are punished in flaming fire and vengeance by God (2nd Thessalonians 1:8,9).

ALTER2EGO -to- TYR-ZIU SAXNOT:

Notice that you did not bother to quote 2Thessalonians 1:8-9. Instead, you simply told the forum what you believe the verses are saying. The context to those verses does not agree with you conclusion that the "flaming fire" is literal. Notice the quotation of the same verses below. Forus on the words that are in bold print.


"{8} in flaming fire, bringing judgment on those who don't know God and on those who refuse to obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus. {9} They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."
(2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 -- New Living Translation)

Notice that verse 8 speaks of "flaming fire" and verse 9 explains what is meant by that. Verse 9 explains that the "flaming fire" is with reference to annihilation aka "eternal destruction".


I will address another of your "hellfire" verses at another time.

[Alter2Ego]

Religious people almost NEED eternal punishment to exist to validate their sacrifices. WRT Christianity specifically, because I am an expert in that faith (), I believe God 'losing' to the Devil is pretty sad. By Losing I mean - based on teaching received in the church more folks' souls will spend eternity in Hell than in Heaven. I wonder why God would give up the souls of those he's loved since the creation of time.

ALTER2EGO -to- DMP:

When you say "more folks souls," what is your understanding of the "soul" when that word is used in the scriptures? To help you understand what I am asking, below is question 7 from my opening post, which I will now direct to you.


QUESTION to DMP: Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it, and follow the steps indicated at Question #1.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I think the key factor in deciding for us if hell exists or not would have to come from asking whether a good and moral God would create what to me seems like an immoral construct.

I cannot see a moral and just God using or creating such a place.

Few believers in hell like to openly discuss morals but if any here would like to look at this question from that angle, I am here for that.

You may make the opening argument if you like and take that advantage or ask for mine.

Regards
DL

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

1.Saint Paul teaches us in Ephesians 4:9 that Christ our Lord descended
into Hell after He offered His life on the cross. “Now that He
ascended, what is it, but because He also descended first into the
lower parts of the earth?” Note here that Hell is described as having
“parts” that is the four parts of Hell.


2.Saint Peter said in Acts 2:24 that “God hath raised up Christ,
having loosed the sorrows of hell, as it was impossible that He
should be holden by it.” Christ loosed the Old Testament saints
from hell.


3.Saint Peter also wrote in 1 Peter 3:19 that “Christ coming in spirit
preached to those spirits that were in prison, which had some time
been incredulous.” On this verse, Saint Athanasius says that “Christ’s
body was laid in the sepulchre when He went to preach to those spirits
who were in bondage, as Peter said.” (Ep. ad Epict.)


4.The prophet Hosea foretold the descent of Christ into Hell in
Hosea 13:14 by placing these words into the mouth of the Messiah:
“O death, I will be thy death; O hell, I will be thy bite.”


5.Zechariah foretells the redemption of those in the Limbo of the
Fathers in Zech 9:11: “Thou also by the blood of Thy Testament hast
sent forth Thy prisoners out of the pit.” What could this mean except
that the Messiah would free people from the underworld?


6.Colossians 2:15: “Despoiling the principalities and powers, He
hath exposed them confidently.” This refers to Christ’s victory over
the condemned angels who are the demons of Hell.


7.Psalm 23:7: “Lift up your gates, O ye princes,” which the medieval
Gloss interprets: “that is–Ye princes of hell, take away your power,
whereby hitherto you held men fast in hell”.


8.In Ecclesiasticus 24:45, Siracides prophecied: “I will penetrate
to all the lower parts of the earth


Exactly what "imaginary" place is referenced in these verses.
You can do them one at a time if you like.
This should be good.
So we are to believe that eight times an imaginary place was
mentioned!??--Tyr

[Drummond]

I think the key factor in deciding for us if hell exists or not would have to come from asking whether a good and moral God would create what to me seems like an immoral construct.

I cannot see a moral and just God using or creating such a place.

Few believers in hell like to openly discuss morals but if any here would like to look at this question from that angle, I am here for that.

You may make the opening argument if you like and take that advantage or ask for mine.

Regards
DL

Yours is a highly judgmental post ... one in which you seem to be placing yourself in a position of judging what God should or should not judge is 'just'. Do you consider yourself as an equal to God, or potentially deserving of being His judge ?

What concept of God I have is one of an Almighty Being whose mind I am not fit either to judge or to ever hope of quantifying. All human beings are way too limited for that.

One might as well try to imagine an amoeba composing the complete works of Shakespeare, or of mastering quantum physics.

[Alter2Ego]

1.Saint Paul teaches us in Ephesians 4:9 that Christ our Lord descended into Hell after He offered His life on the cross. “Now that He ascended, what is it, but because He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?” Note here that Hell is described as having “parts” that is the four parts of Hell.

ALTER2EGO -to- TYR-ZIU SAXNOT:

It so happens that the portion bolded in blue does not fall within the Biblical quotation. In other words, that is just you expressing your personal philosophy. Ephesians 4:9 speaks of "the lower parts of the earth," which simply refers to people being buried in the ground after they die. Six feet under, the last time I heard.

2.Saint Peter said in Acts 2:24 that “God hath raised up Christ, having loosed the sorrows of hell, as it was impossible that He should be holden by it.” Christ loosed the Old Testament saints from hell.

As it again happens, the portion bolded in blue is you again telling people what you believe and is mentioned nowhere in the Bible. Acts 2:24 confirms what I said in my OP, that Christ was in hell aka the grave. He "loosed the sorrows of hell" in the sense that his sacrificial death has opened the opportunity for many people to be resurrected from the grave.

[Alter2Ego]

3.Saint Peter also wrote in 1 Peter 3:19 that “Christ coming in spirit preached to those spirits that were in prison, which had some time been incredulous.” On this verse, Saint Athanasius says that “Christ’s body was laid in the sepulchre when He went to preach to those spirits who were in bondage, as Peter said.” (Ep. ad Epict.)

ALTER2EGO -to- TYR-ZIU SAXNOT:

What Athanasius speculated (bolded in blue) and what Scripture says (bolded in red) are two entirely different things. 1 Peter 3:19 is talking about what Jesus Christ did after he was resurrected from the dead.


The routine of people who hold onto unscriptural beliefs is to ignore context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters). And that is exactly what you did in this instance. Part of the context to 1 Peter 3:19 is found in the preceding verse, which you ignored. Notice below.

"{18} Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit. {19} In this state also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison," (1 Peter 3:18-19)


Notice that verse 18 clearly says it was after Jesus was "made alive in the spirit" aka after his resurrection that Jesus went his way and preached to the spirits in prison. And the spirits in prison is with reference to the demons aka literal spirit beings, not dead humans as you seem to think.


Athanasius claims Jesus was preaching while he was still dead. The Bible says Jesus Christ continued preaching after he was resurrected from the dead, meaning Jesus was alive. You can go with Athanasius. I will go with what the Bible says.

[darin]

Not every answer to every question is bible-based. I am not going to sift through scripture and pull out stuff to try and convince anyone of anything - even if 'souls' "REALLY" exist. It's a silly exercise. Those who believe the bible believe in eternal souls (or consciousness, or whatever noun you wish).

[red state]

Yours is a highly judgmental post ... one in which you seem to be placing yourself in a position of judging what God should or should not judge is 'just'. Do you consider yourself as an equal to God, or potentially deserving of being His judge ?

What concept of God I have is one of an Almighty Being whose mind I am not fit either to judge or to ever hope of quantifying. All human beings are way too limited for that.

One might as well try to imagine an amoeba composing the complete works of Shakespeare, or of mastering quantum physics.

Very right you are, Drummond, by the same token, this member could ask if or how GOD could be a moral god when awful things happen every day. The answer is a turning FROM God that allowed awful things into this world and this is EXACTLY why Hell exists. It was created for the Angels that turned from God and made his perfect world a place of sin. If you turn away from God.....you are left with the alternative for God can not share in the company of those who have not been cleansed.

In Hell, the rich man lifted up his eyes but Lazarus was in comfort. These were two REAL people and more than the normal parable that Christ usually told. If there is no Hell, there can be no Heaven.....or Father of heaven. For many, there are no absolutes and morality is simply whatever floats your boat or 'makes you feel good'. I could care less who believes or disagrees that Hell, Heaven or God exists. We will all find out in the end but by that time, it'll be too late. I misspoke. I do care and would to God that all would be welcomed into Glory but that is simply not going to happen because the gates are wide.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Yours is a highly judgmental post ...

Thank you. I try hard to follow God's Word. ---1 Thesalonian 5;21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.


one in which you seem to be placing yourself in a position of judging what God should or should not judge is 'just'. Do you consider yourself as an equal to God, or potentially deserving of being His judge ?Absolutely.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

What concept of God I have is one of an Almighty Being whose mind I am not fit either to judge or to ever hope of quantifying. All human beings are way too limited for that.

One might as well try to imagine an amoeba composing the complete works of Shakespeare, or of mastering quantum physics.

A shame that you see yourself as to stupid to do what we can all do as descendants of Adam and Eve who as God said, became as Gods in knowing good and evil.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

It was created for the Angels that turned from God and made his perfect world a place of sin.

Care to speculate then on why God cast Satan ad her friends to Eden with the power to deceive Eve, dominion over man?

If hell was created for Angels, what do humans need with a savior? None have to worry about hell if it was created only for Angels.

Regards
DL