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    Default population without insurance

    Here is a pretty good article regarding who those people in Sicko without insurance are. I know some will have a problem with the source of the article, but keep reading the report is from the census bureau.

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=56725



    WASHINGTON – While "Sicko" filmmaker Michael Moore is blaming greed and a broken health care system for the inability of Americans to get health-care insurance, it turns out a heavy percentage of those without coverage are illegal aliens.

    According to the latest Census Bureau figures, 43.6 percent of non-citizens in the U.S. are without health insurance. In addition, 33.6 percent of those born elsewhere are without coverage.

    By contrast, only 13.4 percent of native-born Americans are without health insurance. And 17.9 percent of naturalized citizens are without coverage.

    The statistics will be no surprise to health-care providers. Hospital emergency rooms in Florida and California have been forced to close their doors as a result of increased demands by uninsured and under-insured patients – many of them illegal aliens

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigg View Post
    Here is a pretty good article regarding who those people in Sicko without insurance are. I know some will have a problem with the source of the article, but keep reading the report is from the census bureau.

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=56725



    WASHINGTON – While "Sicko" filmmaker Michael Moore is blaming greed and a broken health care system for the inability of Americans to get health-care insurance, it turns out a heavy percentage of those without coverage are illegal aliens.

    According to the latest Census Bureau figures, 43.6 percent of non-citizens in the U.S. are without health insurance. In addition, 33.6 percent of those born elsewhere are without coverage.

    Now that BushCo has introduced the Health Savings Account, anyone without an insurance plan at work would be a fool not to use this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_savings_account It essentially allows you to spend as little as possible on insurance with a high deductible, pay routine expenses with pre-tax dollars, and use the fund as an investment.

    Now that BushCo has introduced the Health Savings Account, anyone without an insurance plan at work would be a fool not to use this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_savings_account It essentially allows you to spend as little as possible on insurance with a high deductible, pay routine expenses with pre-tax dollars, and use the fund as an investment.

    By contrast, only 13.4 percent of native-born Americans are without health insurance. And 17.9 percent of naturalized citizens are without coverage.

    The statistics will be no surprise to health-care providers. Hospital emergency rooms in Florida and California have been forced to close their doors as a result of increased demands by uninsured and under-insured patients – many of them illegal aliens
    I heard the other day that about 40% uninsured are those 20-35 who choose not to carry it, as they would rather have the extra cash for themselves. Also about 30% have incomes over $50K, and 20% over $75K. Sorry, no source. But the Democrat's claim that these are all po' folk is BS.
    Last edited by glockmail; 07-18-2007 at 11:28 AM.

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    Now that BushCo has introduced the Health Savings Account, anyone without an insurance plan at work would be a fool not to use this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_savings_account It essentially allows you to spend as little as possible on insurance with a high deductible, pay routine expenses with pre-tax dollars, and use the fund as an investment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glockmail View Post
    Now that BushCo has introduced the Health Savings Account, anyone without an insurance plan at work would be a fool not to use this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_savings_account It essentially allows you to spend as little as possible on insurance with a high deductible, pay routine expenses with pre-tax dollars, and use the fund as an investment.
    i had not even heard of this insurance plan.

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    Default Well they are here ILLEGALLY

    As far as I'm concerned they dont need insurance. They shouldnt even be in our country period. I have good insurance my job provides it and not a dime out of my check for it. The only thing that i pay is my co pays and deductibles. I do have to pay my own dental though big deal 6 dollars a month
    Food for thought... If guns are outlawed how can we shoot the liberals???? Anti-war= Pro Terrorism.

    Impeach Obama Bin Laden!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigg View Post
    i had not even heard of this insurance plan.
    It's not an insurance plan. It's a tax scam.
    Building a better America by hammering the Right.

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    Default ...............

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Steel View Post
    It's not an insurance plan. It's a tax scam.
    You are such an asswad, your retardedness is scary.

    If you attack the Clintons publically make sure all your friends know your not planning on commiting suicide ~ McCain 2008
    Happiness is Obama's picture on the back of a milk carton.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nevadamedic View Post
    You are such an asswad, your retardedness is scary.
    Food for thought... If guns are outlawed how can we shoot the liberals???? Anti-war= Pro Terrorism.

    Impeach Obama Bin Laden!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Steel View Post
    It's not an insurance plan. It's a tax scam.
    dispute the following information for me if you can!!!!!! The part I like best is that Moore is always right in his assertions and everyone else is wrong even though they have MUCH MORE research and ligitimate research..

    Here's the link:

    http://www.businessandmedia.org/arti...718153509.aspx



    Health Care Lie: '47 Million Uninsured Americans'
    Michael Moore, politicians and the media use inflated numbers of those without health insurance to promote universal coverage.


    Fact Sheet about Michael Moore

    By Julia A. Seymour
    Business & Media Institute
    7/18/2007 4:01:33 PM



    Michael Moore was wrong about health insurance.



    So were President Bush, Sens. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) and Hillary Clinton (D-N.Y.), presidential candidates former Sen. John Edwards and Gov. Mike Huckabee and The Washington Post, New York Times, Los Angeles Times, People magazine and Time magazine, as well as CNN, CBS and ABC.



    Each of these people and media outlets incorrectly claimed the number of uninsured to be 40 to 50 million Americans. The actual total is open to debate. But there are millions of people who should be excluded from that tally, including: those who aren’t American citizens, people who can afford their own insurance, and people who already qualify for government coverage but haven’t signed up.



    Government statistics also show 45 percent of those without insurance will have insurance again within four months after job transitions.



    Accounting for all those factors, one prominent study places the total for the long-term uninsured as low as 8.2 million – a very different reality than the media and national health care advocates claim.




    Breaking It Down: Who’s Uninsured?



    The number of the uninsured who aren’t citizens is nearly 10 million on its own, invalidating all the claims of 40+ million “Americans” without health insurance.



    “It’s really indefensible that we now have more than 45 million uninsured Americans, 9 million of whom are children, and the vast majority of whom are from working families,” said Sen. Hillary Clinton in a May 31 speech.



    It was typical spin and easy to find. ABC medical expert Dr. Tim Johnson cited the incorrect data as he praised a "bold" and "politically brilliant" universal coverage plan on the April 26 “Good Morning America.”



    “It’s bold because it does propose to cover all Americans, including the 47 million now who are uninsured, within five years,” said Johnson.



    In his propagandumentary “SiCKO” that favored the socialist health care systems of Canada, Britain, France and Cuba, Michael Moore made the fantastic claim that almost 50 million Americans are uninsured.



    “SiCKO: There are nearly 50 million Americans without health insurance,” quoted Moore’s Web site.



    However, the Census Bureau report “Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2005,” puts the initial number of uninsured people living in the country at 46.577 million.



    A closer look at that report reveals the Census data include 9.487 million people who are “not a citizen.” Subtracting the 10 million non-Americans, the number of uninsured Americans falls to roughly 37 million.



    Moore should have paid attention to that fact, since he agrees that being “an American” matters to get health insurance.



    “That’s the only preexisting condition that should exist. I am an American. That’s it,” said Moore in footage aired by ABC’s “Nightline” on June 13.



    That isn’t the only problem with the numbers currently being used.



    Moore’s Trouble with the Facts



    Recently, CNN’s Dr. Sanjay Gupta accused Michael Moore of “fudging” some numbers in his recent film “SiCKO.” This sparked a temper tantrum by Moore who threatened to become the network’s “worst nightmare” if they didn’t apologize and recant.



    CNN did “correct and apologize” for one transcription error, but stood by Gupta’s statement “CNN’s numbers and Moore’s numbers aren’t far off, but we believe ours are a fairer comparison.”



    In his film and television appearances, Moore left out quite a bit of information about the uninsured.



    On his Web site, Moore claimed the Census Bureau had “underreported” the number of people without health insurance.



    But Cheryl Hill Lee, a co-author of the Census Bureau study Moore was citing, told the Business & Media Institute that the data showed the exact opposite of what Moore said.



    The Census “underreported” the number of people covered by health insurance – meaning that more people have insurance than the report suggests. The Census also underreported the number of people covered by Medicare and Medicaid.





    They Can’t Afford Insurance …



    Many of the same people pushing the incorrect numbers of uninsured Americans also claim that these people cannot “afford” insurance.



    “And when you’ve got 47 million people in this country with no health insurance, they don’t go to the doctor because they can’t afford it,” Moore said on CNN’s “Larry King Live” July 10.



    Katie Couric echoed those sentiment on the CBS “Evening News” May 23.



    “The number of Americans with no health insurance is continuing to grow as more and more employers say they can’t afford to offer group insurance … People who try to buy insurance on their own often find the price beyond their reach,” said Couric as she introduced a two-part “investigation of the health insurance industry.”



    But according to the same Census report, there are 8.3 million uninsured people who make between $50,000 and $74,999 per year and 8.74 million who make more than $75,000 a year. That’s roughly 17 million people who ought to be able to “afford” health insurance because they make substantially more than the median household income of $46,326.



    On the July 13 “Larry King Live,” Gupta did make that point, providing more context than Moore and most journalists about the affordability of health insurance.



    Subtracting non-citizens and those who can afford their own insurance but choose not to purchase it, about 20 million people are left – less than 7 percent of the population.


    “Many Americans are uninsured by choice,” wrote Dr. David Gratzer in his book “The Cure: How Capitalism Can Save American Health Care.” Gratzer cited a study of the “nonpoor uninsured” from the California Healthcare Foundation.



    “Why the lack of insurance [among people who own homes and computers]? One clue is that 60 percent reported being in excellent health or very good health,” explained Gratzer.





    A Lie that Promotes Big Government



    Moore, Clinton and Obama have used the lie about 40-some million uninsured Americans to promote universal health insurance plans. Moore asserted in his film that providing health insurance to everyone is a moral and even religious obligation.



    The mainstream media have played along, championing “ambitious” universal coverage plans and referring to the U.S. system as “deeply flawed.”



    “California’s ambitious plan to make health insurance available to almost everyone in the state is getting a lot of attention all over the country, and here’s why. According to the latest figures, the number of uninsured Americans has grown to more than 46 million,” said Katie Couric on the “CBS Evening News” January 9.



    Journalists’ failure to question that high figure has furthered the cause of nationalized care.



    “Proponents of universal health care often use the 46-million figure -- without context or qualification. It creates the false impression that a huge percentage of the population has fallen through the cracks,” Gratzer told BMI. “Again, that’s not to suggest that there is no problem, but it's very different than the universal-care crowd describes.”



    Dr. Grace-Marie Turner, a BMI adviser and president of the Galen Institute, agreed that “the number [on uninsured] is inflated and affects the debate.”



    Turner also pointed out that “45 percent of the uninsured are going to have insurance within four months [according to the Congressional Budget Office],” because many are transitioning between jobs and most people get health insurance through their employers.



    So what is the true extent of the uninsured “crisis?” The Kaiser Family Foundation, a liberal non-profit frequently quoted by the media, puts the number of uninsured Americans who do not qualify for current government programs and make less than $50,000 a year between 13.9 million and 8.2 million. That is a much smaller figure than the media report.



    Kaiser’s 8.2 million figure for the chronically uninsured only includes those uninsured for two years or more. It is also worth noting, that, 45 percent of uninsured people will be uninsured for less than four months according to the Congressional Budget Office.
    Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want." -Dr. Randy Pausch


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    Here are some other links that might shed some light as well, I know these are from the same web sight but they reference other media outlets interaction with Moore...


    http://www.businessandmedia.org/arti...8-sidebar.aspx

    http://www.businessandmedia.org/arti...713180224.aspx

    http://www.businessandmedia.org/arti...711133049.aspx

    http://www.businessandmedia.org/arti...622174827.aspx
    Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want." -Dr. Randy Pausch


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    I must admit I don't understand why some Americans are so ideologically blinkered as to fail to appreciate the usefulness of a single payer health system.

    For a start it removes all those insurance companies that are all about profit and refusing your claims.

    It also takes the burden of big corporations that have such huge liabilities for employee health benefits.

    I was listening to a radio report that discussed the pending negotiations between the UAW and, I think it was GM, anyway one of the big auto companies and the amount of unfunded liabilities for employee health insurance was staggering. If the company didn't have that liability then apparently it would be much more competitive (in terms of dollars per hour paid to its employees).

    The unfunded liability for health insurance and the pension scheme (another topic I know) apparently threaten the viability of the company so the UAW is on notice (although it says it's not in a mood for concessions in these areas).

    I just don't get it.

    Now, if it's possible to explain why the US system is better than the single-payer system used in many countries, I'd really like to read about it. And it would be good to have information instead of slams against Moore, rants about "socialist health schemes" and the like. And also it would be good to read your ideas rather than anecdotes about how bad the system is elsewhere.
    "Unbloodybreakable" DCI Gene Hunt, 2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by diuretic View Post
    I must admit I don't understand why some Americans are so ideologically blinkered as to fail to appreciate the usefulness of a single payer health system.

    For a start it removes all those insurance companies that are all about profit and refusing your claims.

    It also takes the burden of big corporations that have such huge liabilities for employee health benefits.

    I was listening to a radio report that discussed the pending negotiations between the UAW and, I think it was GM, anyway one of the big auto companies and the amount of unfunded liabilities for employee health insurance was staggering. If the company didn't have that liability then apparently it would be much more competitive (in terms of dollars per hour paid to its employees).

    The unfunded liability for health insurance and the pension scheme (another topic I know) apparently threaten the viability of the company so the UAW is on notice (although it says it's not in a mood for concessions in these areas).

    I just don't get it.

    Now, if it's possible to explain why the US system is better than the single-payer system used in many countries, I'd really like to read about it. And it would be good to have information instead of slams against Moore, rants about "socialist health schemes" and the like. And also it would be good to read your ideas rather than anecdotes about how bad the system is elsewhere.
    Because their "Party" told them it would be bad?

    -Actually, I have heard the argument, that a "free market" system such as ours, produces better doctors and better research and development because of the Competition. The idea that the government would be the ones paying their bills would only mean that there would be "price controls" of some sort put in to place...and of course there is a big Lobbying movement to prevent any changes in our Healthcare.

    -Taking the Burden off of businesses and putting it ALL on to us COULD BE very expensive to us and a HUGE tax break to Big Businesses if they don't raise our pay to compensate for the once paid by them "Benefit" but now paid by us, through higher taxes. And many of us working any kind of white collar job, take much less in pay but more in benefits from a company to compensate....we include what benefits they pay us in to our total compensation...at least the last 2 companies that I had worked for, sent me a yearly statement of what my Total Compensation was and that included my salary, my bonus, and what they contributed towards my Social security in my name, their 401k retirement match, and what they paid in health insurance for me and what they paid in Life Insurance for me....then Wa la', my TOTAL COMPENSATION....

    And Health Insurance was a big chunk....about $9,ooo.
    -----------------------------

    What the people on this thread fail to recognize is that even though 10 million of the 40-47 million mentioned without Health Insurance doesn't make the situation any less dire or any less need for reforms.

    No one in the Hospital Business or the Health Insurance Business pays for the Healthcare of these individuals, but WE DO.

    We pay it with our own tax dollars already giving them "humane" coverage through our emergency rooms, rquired by law.... the most expensive way to get health coverage is through the Emergency Rooms.

    If you are buying your own Health Insurance you are paying a higher price for it to cover this health care for all of the uninsured too.

    And the Businesses buying our Health Insurance are paying a higher price for this insurance to cover the cost of the health care of the indigent and others too.

    So basically, it is alot more complicated than you would think for those on either side of the issue.

    There are many other things involved too that would have to be figured out...

    (Of course there is the opposition to that mentioned above, who say that Healthcare will cost less without the Insurance companies as the middle men collecting their part, which you mentioned and I happen to believe is true.)
    Last edited by JohnDoe; 07-20-2007 at 09:25 PM.

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    Thanks for those points, that makes me much better informed.
    "Unbloodybreakable" DCI Gene Hunt, 2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nukeman View Post
    dispute the following information for me if you can!!!!!! The part I like best is that Moore is always right in his assertions and everyone else is wrong even though they have MUCH MORE research and ligitimate research..

    Here's the link:

    http://www.businessandmedia.org/arti...718153509.aspx

    I was talking about Health Savings Accounts.

    Why are you going-off on the uninsured?

    Just for the record, though, I acknowledge the point: a significant portion of the uninsured are uninsured by choice.
    Building a better America by hammering the Right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Steel View Post
    I was talking about Health Savings Accounts.

    Why are you going-off on the uninsured?

    Just for the record, though, I acknowledge the point: a significant portion of the uninsured are uninsured by choice.
    I understand you were talking about HSA's, however you have also been a big proponet of government run heatlh care.

    I read your response to Diuretic, I can agree with soome of what you say, however I take exception to the following statement.

    No one in the Hospital Business or the Health Insurance Business pays for the Healthcare of these individuals, but WE DO.

    We pay it with our own tax dollars already giving them "humane" coverage through our emergency rooms, rquired by law.... the most expensive way to get health coverage is through the Emergency Rooms.

    If you are buying your own Health Insurance you are paying a higher price for it to cover this health care for all of the uninsured too.

    And the Businesses buying our Health Insurance are paying a higher price for this insurance to cover the cost of the health care of the indigent and others too.
    Contrary to what you believe the Hospitals in question take an enormous hit in thier bottom line by "writing off" bad debt, uncollectable debt, failure to pay, and insurance fraud.

    For your information most hopitals PAY for insurance like every other business (some hospitals have some of the worst insurance out there for the price). The employees' PAY for thier insurance just like everyone else out there. Guess what? They also all pay taxes. So yes the burden is being shared by ALL. This is just the price of doing business!!

    For profit hospitals pay a large amount of taxes and other fees that non-for-profit hopitals don't. If you want to see a change start with eliminating the non-for-profit status and make all hopitals pay thier fair share of local and federal taxes..

    I will agree with you that this is a very complicated issue. I would point out that if we were to utilize a single payer system most of our research and development would cease due to lack of funds or incentive. Due to the fact that we have such monatary incentives the research will continue and we will still have access to the best healthcare in the world...

    On a side note have you ever looked at the VA system. This is a single payer system that is run ultimately by the federal government. They are exempt from a number of government regulation that affect all other hopitals in the US. The system is very flawed. IF and this is a very big IF the government could straighten out all of these issues with the VA system than maybe more Americans would be willing to listen to them about a single payer system.
    Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want." -Dr. Randy Pausch


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