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    Default Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

    Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

    Some religions like Christianity and Islam teach that people are condemned by God and that we have to work to gain salvation. God created us ill, and orders us to be well, on pain of tremendous eternal torture and eventual death. This teaching follows the one where we are told that God is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways. This makes the notions of condemnation and the need for salvation obvious lies.

    Gnostic Christianity does not use this type of carrot and stick motivation in its theology. We are Universalists and only see a heaven, no hell. We think God too good a creator to ever have to condemn anyone. Our God is a winner, not the loser God that Christianity has invented. All the Gods are myths created to help us reach our highest human potential and are only tools to open our inner eye. Our single eye as Jesus calls it.

    How we can forgive ourselves is that as Universalists, we have tied righteousness to equality. The logic trail from there says that if God is to punish anyone, he would have to punish everyone as everyone contributes to what we all are.

    For instance. If God were to punish Hitler, he would have to revue what made Hitler what he ended up being. God would follow his time line and see perhaps that his parents spanked him and God would know what we know today, that spanking creates resentment and a delinquent attitude. That beginning would see Hitler's parents setting his mindset which eventually flowered into his tyrannical nature.So to be just, God would automatically have to punish Hitler's parents. That same logic would apply to everyone who contributed or facilitated Hitler's rise to infamy.

    So for you and me to blame just ourselves for what we are would be quite unjust. This is not to say that we hold no responsibility for our actions, just not all of them.

    Do you agree that the need of Salvation promoted by religions is an evil lie?

    Regards
    DL


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    Yes it is, except for those that teach salvation through Jesus Christ and only Jesus Christ.
    Experienced Social Distancer ... waaaay before COVID.

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    If this ain't a meeting of the minds ....
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    Quote Originally Posted by tailfins View Post
    Yes it is, except for those that teach salvation through Jesus Christ and only Jesus Christ.

    And because christs work is done, there is no longer eternal punishment and torment. Except when the church wants control.

    :-)
    “… the greatest detractor from high performance is fear: fear that you are not prepared, fear that you are in over your head, fear that you are not worthy, and ultimately, fear of failure. If you can eliminate that fear—not through arrogance or just wishing difficulties away, but through hard work and preparation—you will put yourself in an incredibly powerful position to take on the challenges you face" - Pete Carroll.

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    And another cheerful weekend ahead for gnostic

    After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box - Author unknown

    “Unfortunately, the truth is now whatever the media say it is”
    -Abbey

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?
    Were you assaulted/beaten by a religious person?

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    very interesting how Gnostic allways attempts to appeal 1st to people's personal opinions and feelings rather than simply asking people to consider if the Bible or any other messages are simply true or false , regardless of how it's negatively couched by some ..."carrot and stick" this time around.
    the question finally is, is it true. Not whether we feel this or that aspect is the way we want it. But before we even get there it's right to question whether or not Gnostic is even correct in describing the chrsitian faith. Anyone who reads 2 paragraphs of his stuff can see the hard core distain of all things christian and if anyone simply reads the Bible in context they'll see his systematic MIScharacterization of nearly EVERY teaching in scripture.

    These mischaracterizations he claims are "true" and from the "real god" but again appealing to self knowledge i.e. personal opinion. And if you ask him for a source for his authoritative views he'll dodge like an NFL pro, hand wave and name call the questioner and then redouble his slurs and attacks against christianity, christians, the scriptures, the prophets and the jewish faith to boot.
    But if he's truly a "gnostic" then his ideas flow from skeptics and a christian knockoff group that sprung up 200-300 years AFTER Christ rose and Christianity was already well established. the gnostic "gospels" writings are ALL long after (250+years after Christ) and historically known to be a mishmash of plagiarism of the gospels and other writings, wives tales, greek ideas, and skepticism.

    In contrast to the already established tenets of Christianity which now have historical documentation/written texts that goes back the the 1st century that confirm all the core tenets of christianity.
    John Chapter 1
    "
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 He was in the beginning with God.3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it..... The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."...
    ....“For God so loved the world,[i] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil....

    ...36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him....

    Ephesians 2
    ...For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them....

    the GOOD NEWS is that salvation is free, despite our sins. One simply has to trust in Jesus Christ.
    The offer is there free for those who want it. It's the truth.

    John 14 Jesus said
    ...“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also." ...
    Last edited by revelarts; 04-09-2016 at 10:35 AM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Ephesians 2 sorta points to the work of "salvation" being done. Complete. No traditional eternal hell or torment.
    “… the greatest detractor from high performance is fear: fear that you are not prepared, fear that you are in over your head, fear that you are not worthy, and ultimately, fear of failure. If you can eliminate that fear—not through arrogance or just wishing difficulties away, but through hard work and preparation—you will put yourself in an incredibly powerful position to take on the challenges you face" - Pete Carroll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmp View Post
    Ephesians 2 sorta points to the work of "salvation" being done. Complete. No traditional eternal hell or torment.
    One might get that impression about that from that verse in Ephesians... if it were the only thing said about salvation in the new testament.
    you seem to take Ephesians 2 as authoritative Scripture (the word of god maybe?) but call the concepts of eternal hell and torment "traditional" . but Paul wrote both Ephesians and Thessalonians and about both the free gift of Grace to all ...that believe and about eternal hell and punishment DMP.
    2 Thessalonians 1
    ...God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you...
    Last edited by revelarts; 04-09-2016 at 01:07 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    How about instead of engaging "GNOGGIE" we all ignore his obvious trolling and just let him and BitchFins have a mutual admiration society.

    Do any of you actually think you can convince Gnoggie to see your point of view??

    If you do you're deluding yourselves...

    IGNORE HIM!!
    You know, the last time I was in Germany and saw a man standing above everybody else, we ended up disagreeing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voted4Reagan View Post
    How about instead of engaging "GNOGGIE" we all ignore his obvious trolling and just let him and BitchFins have a mutual admiration society.

    Do any of you actually think you can convince Gnoggie to see your point of view??

    If you do you're deluding yourselves...

    IGNORE HIM!!
    We now have an example that living in NYC doesn't exempt someone from being poor white trash.
    Experienced Social Distancer ... waaaay before COVID.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tailfins View Post
    We now have an example that living in NYC doesn't exempt someone from being poor white trash.
    Who are you insulting now? Don't have enough enemies, or what? I don't know who the fuck you think came down from Heaven and ordained God's Greatest Gift" but you're dumber'n a hitchpost me. And I AM poor white trash. I've worked my ass off and never had two extra nickels to rub together. But I'd rather be me than you and all your self-proclaimed success. I'm a human being that cares about others. You're none of the above. All you ever talk about is your fucking money. Big damned deal. Money can't buy you a personality, nor can it buy you love. It'll get you some shit at the mall though.

    You need to grow up.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    Who are you insulting now? Don't have enough enemies, or what? I don't know who the fuck you think came down from Heaven and ordained God's Greatest Gift" but you're dumber'n a hitchpost me. And I AM poor white trash. I've worked my ass off and never had two extra nickels to rub together. But I'd rather be me than you and all your self-proclaimed success. I'm a human being that cares about others. You're none of the above. All you ever talk about is your fucking money. Big damned deal. Money can't buy you a personality, nor can it buy you love. It'll get you some shit at the mall though.

    You need to grow up.
    I know you're just yanking my chain, but Mr. PWT (Poor White Trash) started it. Maybe what you're feeling is what they call in Brazil, "Dor de cotovelo". He make me think of a spoof of Micheal Jackson: "He's such a PWT. I want slap you, PWT (Poor White Trash). But I shouldn't because slapping a turd makes your hand stink."

    Last edited by tailfins; 04-09-2016 at 05:17 PM.
    Experienced Social Distancer ... waaaay before COVID.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tailfins View Post
    I know you're just yanking my chain, but Mr. PWT (Poor White Trash) started it. Maybe what you're feeling is what they call in Brazil, "Dor de cotovelo".
    Yanking your chain? Dude I had one pair of shoes to wear to church on Sunday when I was little otherwise, I was running barefoot. In cut off shorts and no shirt. Nobody cared and we didn't even know we were poor. We thought everyone lived like us because everyone around us did. When I started school I thought they were torturing me making me get all dressed up with a collared shirt, belt, and shoes and socks.

    And your Portugese sucks. It's Spanish and has no relevance to anything I've said. Or did you miss where I'd rather be me than you? You can have all the material bullshit your money can buy. Won't buy you a soul. Something you seem to be seriously lacking.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    Yanking your chain? Dude I had one pair of shoes to wear to church on Sunday when I was little otherwise, I was running barefoot. In cut off shorts and no shirt. Nobody cared and we didn't even know we were poor. We thought everyone lived like us because everyone around us did. When I started school I thought they were torturing me making me get all dressed up with a collared shirt, belt, and shoes and socks.

    And your Portugese sucks. It's Spanish and has no relevance to anything I've said. Or did you miss where I'd rather be me than you? You can have all the material bullshit your money can buy. Won't buy you a soul. Something you seem to be seriously lacking.
    There were two other words: White trash. And that part has nothing to do with his money. And now you're an expert on Portuguese. Someone's arteries are hardening. I will leave you to pounding your keyboard.
    Last edited by tailfins; 04-09-2016 at 05:27 PM.
    Experienced Social Distancer ... waaaay before COVID.

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