Iranians may be resposible for karbala attack

[retiredman]

bingo Jillian... Islam is not the enemy.... members of extremist sub-sects of Islam are the enemy.

However, if we continue to treat the middle east with the Team Bush hamfisted approach, it won't take too many more years before we have turned all of Islam against us.

If we really want to get certain muslims to stop wanting to kill us, we need to find a better way to do that then by killing muslims...unless we are prepared to kill them all - both abroad and at home.

[Gunny]

The "welcome us with open arms" and "flowers and candy" garbage didn't come from the "politically correct". It came from your admin and the PNAC guys who didn't have a clue. Now, perhaps you might have known better than that having your military background. But it was always an absurd paradigm.

It came from the same mentality that thinks we can negotiate with these morons, and as far as I've seen, that delusional thinking is as bipartisan as it gets.

Problem is, too many Americans, on both sides of the aisle, are so busy feelign superior and thinking everyone envies us, the notion that anyone wouldn't want a shot at being just like us isn't even a consideration. They cannot fathom that anymore than the people they think want to be "just like " can fathom what "just like us" is.

No matter which way you spin it, it is everything about politically correct appeasement. Politicians were going to ensure we looked like the "good guys bearing gifts," no matter what strategic and/or tactical doctrine they had to ignore.

Democrats are just as guilty at playing that game as Republicans, if and when they act.

And you're correct about the Iranis. Their leader is an animal, but he's *their* animal. Why would we have expected anything less than an insurgency in Iraq when the same rules applied? The additional problem in Iraq is that it's an artificial country drawn by people who had no understanding, and less interest, in the differences between Sunni, Shi'a and Kurd.

I may be correct. If planning to invade Iran, I would go in under the assumption that the worst possible scenario is likely to happen, and be prepared to react to it, not under the assumption that everything was going to turn out hunky-dory.

[Gunny]

First, where I think we have agreement:

The admin had and has no understanding of the middle east.
Democracy is not for every country or group and certainly can't be force fed them.
The mindset of the middle east is not like ours.

Where I think we disagree:

I don't think all Islamic people are the same, any more than every sect of Christianity or Judaism is the same.
I don't think the way to deal with terrorism is by invading sovereign nations and overthrowing their leaders.... especially if we're ridiculous enough to assume they're going to embrace democracy when things are blowing up around them and their infrastructure is destroyed and food, water and electricity and jobs are scarce. (OK..we might agree on part of that).
I don't think we can treat every muslim like every other. Turks are not Iranians are not Iraqis.... are not Palestinians...are not Saudis.

Iraqis. so-called Palestinians and Saudis are ALL Arabs. Turks are Turks and Iranians are Persian.

Of those you named, only Turkey is a secular state. Palestine is governed by an internationally recognized terrorist organization, supported openly by the government of Iran, that is run by fundamentalists.

Our so-called allies, the Saudis, preach arguably the most extreme, anti-Western/anti-American version of fundamental Islam -- Wahabbism.

Saddam was taken out for being an idiot, not a fundamental Islamic.

[Gaffer]

Even the turks are swinging toward more fundimental islamic practices. Attaturk did everything he could to westernize the country. and now its slipping back. They will need to be watch in the future.