Question for our military folk

[Abbey Marie]

When I was recruited by the Army in 3rd year law school, I was told I would go in at the rank of Captain. I did not join, but I sometimes wondered how non-commissioned officers would feel about someone so young and inexperienced militarily being bestowed that rank.

The great respect I see here for our CSM reminded me of this. So, I guess my question is, what generally is the relationship between comms and non-comms (pardon me if the lingo is wrong; I'm trying my best!). Is there real mutual respect, or is it just a case-by-case basis?

[CSM]

When I was recruited by the Army in 3rd year law school, I was told I would go in at the rank of Captain. I did not join, but I sometimes wondered how non-commissioned officers would feel about someone so young and inexperienced militarily being bestowed that rank.

The great respect I see here for our CSM reminded me of this. So, I guess my question is, what generally is the relationship between comms and non-comms (pardon me if the lingo is wrong; I'm trying my best!). Is there real mutual respect, or is it just a case-by-case basis?

There are several instances where a particular skill set starts at a higher commissioned rank (doctors, chaplains, lawyers, etc.). Those folks usually are respected for their profession rather than their rank and are seldom anywhere near combat operations (doctors and nurses sometimes excepted). I have never seen nor heard of any officer given a combat or combat support command until they have gone "through the ranks".

True respect (as others will tell you) is earned. Developing a professional relationship between officer and NCO is sometimes tough to do but when it happens, it is awesome. Senior NCOs will normally carry out orders for two reasons .... it is the right thing to do (and it makes sense) and gets the mission accomplished or they are about to teach an officer a lesson. NCOs are not mindless robots. They will certainly tell an officer (especially a junior officer) when they are screwing up.... it's part of their job!

I have no idea what the relationship between officer and NCO looks like in Medical outfits or for Staff Judge Advocate organizations. In most field units, Officer/NCO relations are mostly professional (there are exceptions). I do know that in really effective units (company sized, at least) the commander (usually a Captain) and the First Sergeant have a strong, mutual respect. Much trust between them as well. Occasionally, they remain friends long after one or the other leaves the unit.

At the extreme, if a commissioned officer is really, really bad (I have seen one or two in my career) they eventually will be eliminated one way or the other.

[Abbey Marie]

Thank you, CSM. Your answer is very helpful.

Nothing like a perceived unearned position to make people dislike you. I'm glad that it generally works out well. Knowing myself, I would have been very intimidated for a while in that situation.

[CSM]

Truthfully, it is not all that different from relationships between professionals in the civilian world. The lingo and job may be different but there are basic elements that earn folks respect from others regardless of position: Competence, Integrity, Fairness and Loyalty when practiced in equal measures will earn that respect. Sticking a pin on your collar and demanding respect will get a person no respect at all. Hopefully, both NCOs and Commissioned Officers are taught that long before they are placed in positions of responsibility.

[Elessar]

When I was recruited by the Army in 3rd year law school, I was told I would go in at the rank of Captain. I did not join, but I sometimes wondered how non-commissioned officers would feel about someone so young and inexperienced militarily being bestowed that rank.

The great respect I see here for our CSM reminded me of this. So, I guess my question is, what generally is the relationship between comms and non-comms (pardon me if the lingo is wrong; I'm trying my best!). Is there real mutual respect, or is it just a case-by-case basis?

That is a very good and honest question.

I think @CSM nailed an accurate answer well. Some things may very from branch to branch, but the
basics he mentioned are key to the whole concept. Respect is earned and not just assumed. An Officer,
in front of the troops, has to maintain a sense of dignity and concern for that group of people.

The NCO's in any branch are the true leaders because of knowledge, ability, and experience. Officers are
pretty much managers, and if wise enough, let those senior NCO's run the show once marching orders
have been given.

As an E-5 and E-6 I was in charge of many things with oversight by an E-7 or E-8. We, in some cases, had
a junior officer that was designated as our 'boss'. When I was on the ship as an E-5, the Commanding Officer
had a meeting with all of the Deck Dept. Petty Officers - Boatswain's Mates and Gunner's Mates. He made it
very clear that one important purpose we had was to not only instruct and guide the junior enlisteds, but
the junior officers as well. I barked back at many junior officers that crossed over the line arrogantly.
In the Command Centers I worked in...Us and the officers largely treated each other as equals.

[Gunny]

That is a very good and honest question.

I think @CSM nailed an accurate answer well. Some things may very from branch to branch, but the
basics he mentioned are key to the whole concept. Respect is earned and not just assumed. An Officer,
in front of the troops, has to maintain a sense of dignity and concern for that group of people.

The NCO's in any branch are the true leaders because of knowledge, ability, and experience. Officers are
pretty much managers, and if wise enough, let those senior NCO's run the show once marching orders
have been given.

As an E-5 and E-6 I was in charge of many things with oversight by an E-7 or E-8. We, in some cases, had
a junior officer that was designated as our 'boss'. When I was on the ship as an E-5, the Commanding Officer
had a meeting with all of the Deck Dept. Petty Officers - Boatswain's Mates and Gunner's Mates. He made it
very clear that one important purpose we had was to not only instruct and guide the junior enlisteds, but
the junior officers as well. I barked back at many junior officers that crossed over the line arrogantly.
In the Command Centers I worked in...Us and the officers largely treated each other as equals.

Why is it some people just don't get that simple concept? This ain't pro wrestling. You walk into the room the whole rest of the world could care less. You take command and earn the respect and you get it from me. Otherwise, as CSM said, I'll tell your little bumblebee butt off in a minute. I don't need any medals. I'm not even sure where mine are. And I'm damned sure not getting anyone killed so I can add to the collection.

And yes, it's our job to train once we become senior. I've had officers that listened and I've had officers that thought they were God (usually the ring knockers). Improper or not, I flat ass-chewed my ring knocker Capt on the Boxer my last deployment. I knew it was over then and there and still just wouldn't stop. I ripped him a new ass. I couldn't stand the way he was treating the troops.

I prefer to remember the good officers I served under. They led from the front. And you know what the good officers have in common? They turn around and ask "Gunny, what do you think?" The decision is theirs. But they at least listen to "why not". Then they look at you say, "Git'r done, Gunny".

[Elessar]

Why is it some people just don't get that simple concept?

I prefer to remember the good officers I served under. They led from the front. And you know what the good officers have in common? They turn around and ask "Gunny, what do you think?" The decision is theirs. But they at least listen to "why not". Then they look at you say, "Git'r done, Gunny".

It is funny in a way for some, but as an Active Duty SAR Controller - then a GS-11 SAR Controller,
there were many instances where I disagreed with things the C.O., X.O., and OPS Boss would say
or propose. It is amazing that the wisest of them would slow down and listen to me.

That is a demonstration of Mutual Respect. They trusted my knowledge, judgement and ability.
I always told our newer Command Center folks to never fear to pipe up if you do not agree with
an initial decision. Differences of opinion could be resolved later. Get the mission done first!

[Gunny]

It is funny in a way for some, but as an Active Duty SAR Controller - then a GS-11 SAR Controller,
there were many instances where I disagreed with things the C.O., X.O., and OPS Boss would say
or propose. It is amazing that the wisest of them would slow down and listen to me.

That is a demonstration of Mutual Respect. They trusted my knowledge, judgement and ability.
I always told our newer Command Center folks to never fear to pipe up if you do not agree with
an initial decision. Differences of opinion could be resolved later. Get the mission done first!

You used to do SAR? Screw THAT noise. Give me a rifle and put my boots on the ground.

[aboutime]

CSM said it all, the way it should have been said.

As gunny, and others may verify. Even WE NON-COMS with E's before our number eventually earn the respect of Commissioned Officers as time, experience, and proven ability to perform will show.

As a Communications type...Navy Radioman (which no longer exists). I personally enjoyed the constant, endless training required to perform my duties, both ashore, and afloat. Communications was a mainstay of the entire ship operation in many respects. Security was enforced, and the Commissioned Officers, from the CO, XO, OPS, COMM, and ENGINEERING departments relied on, and required constant accurate information. That is how I enjoyed the mutual respect of both COMM, and NON-COMM officers. It is important in all respects for the maintenance of Discipline, and UCMJ in action.

[Gunny]

CSM said it all, the way it should have been said.

As gunny, and others may verify. Even WE NON-COMS with E's before our number eventually earn the respect of Commissioned Officers as time, experience, and proven ability to perform will show.

As a Communications type...Navy Radioman (which no longer exists). I personally enjoyed the constant, endless training required to perform my duties, both ashore, and afloat. Communications was a mainstay of the entire ship operation in many respects. Security was enforced, and the Commissioned Officers, from the CO, XO, OPS, COMM, and ENGINEERING departments relied on, and required constant accurate information. That is how I enjoyed the mutual respect of both COMM, and NON-COMM officers. It is important in all respects for the maintenance of Discipline, and UCMJ in action.

I meant to make a thread on this and have just been to busy. Everyone thinks us grunts are all heroes but the term "it takes a village to raise a child" comes to mind. You put us out in the field and we need food, water. We want our mail and our pay. And when I call back to the ship for close air support, I ain't talking to Christopher Robbin. I'm talking to the comm geek on the ship. My pay comes from some desk jockey and my chow comes from a cook. My supplies come from some supply guy in a warehouse.

Without any of them, we'd be in a boat without a paddle. I have the utmost respect for support personnel. We couldn't do a damned thing without them.

[Elessar]

You used to do SAR? Screw THAT noise. Give me a rifle and put my boots on the ground.

In all...26 of my full 37 years was in SAR and Maritime Law Enforcement.
The rest was as an instructor in basic training, or as Security / MAA force.

[Elessar]

CSM said it all, the way it should have been said.

As gunny, and others may verify. Even WE NON-COMS with E's before our number eventually earn the respect of Commissioned Officers as time, experience, and proven ability to perform will show.

As a Communications type...Navy Radioman (which no longer exists). I personally enjoyed the constant, endless training required to perform my duties, both ashore, and afloat. Communications was a mainstay of the entire ship operation in many respects. Security was enforced, and the Commissioned Officers, from the CO, XO, OPS, COMM, and ENGINEERING departments relied on, and required constant accurate information. That is how I enjoyed the mutual respect of both COMM, and NON-COMM officers. It is important in all respects for the maintenance of Discipline, and UCMJ in action.

Super, AT...just Super!

[Elessar]

Without any of them, we'd be in a boat without a paddle. I have the utmost respect for support personnel. We couldn't do a damned thing without them.

Danm...you got that right. Support is vital from those not on the front lines of the effort.

[Elessar]

You used to do SAR? Screw THAT noise. Give me a rifle and put my boots on the ground.

SAR was a calling. I'd been a lifeguard since I was 14 - Boy Scouts and Red Cross.

It seemed a natural and logical progression.

A Hall of Fame Swim Coach wanted me to quit the football team in college,
Steve Mahaney. Only 1 of his varsity swimmers could beat me in the 50 or 100 meter
freestyle.

I swam with Michael Phelps' Father, who was a nasty strong safety on our football
team in college. He was damn near as fast as me in the water, and my 40 speed on land
was better than his. 4.5 40 was not shabby at all.

[darin]

I didn't see it elsewhere - sorry if I missed it -

But you wouldn't have gone is AS a Captain, but you would have been fast-tracked to Captain by about six months - maybe a year tops. Three years after making Captain they are eligible for Major. Three years after that, Lieutenant Colonel. And - yes, three years later, Colonel. Making Colonel in as little as 13 years is pretty fast. I'm unsure of the promotion rates - but those are the eligibility requirements, best I can remember. Non JAG Officers probably take 20 years to make Colonel. As an aside, Civilians in pay grade GS15 are the civilian equivalent to Colonel in terms of responsibility and authority. This chart shows the approximate relationship between civilian pay grade and Military Rank.



Couple caveats with that. It's not uncommon civilians of, say GS12, to work for Majors - even though they are of about the same responsibility level (we're talking ONLY staff work - NOT Command when I say responsibility). Army Colonels who command Brigades in some fields have GS15 deputies. And the GS15 Deputy can have other GS15s who work for her/him.

Another issue - If I recall correctly a GS7 can be the boss of the boss of a Senior NCO (Say, E7). GS7s are fairly low-level employees, and often are entry-level type positions. Clerks and guards and what-not. I don't like that aspect. Take the average E8 (Master Sergeant or 1st Sergeant) - and she or he is a veritable expert in their field with close to 20 years experience. Having them work for a GS9 sorta bugs me, situation dependent.


Couple other things: Captain is not a 'high' rank. I say that not to disrespect Army Officers. No NCO would ever feel any weirdness about seeing a fresh-from-law school JAG Captain because they know the deal. That's how JAG and Chaplaincy work. One reason JAG officers are sent to Captain pretty quickly is to carry more credibility and authority with Company-Grade Commanders; other Captains (although the commander of HQ Company, I Corps was a Major). If JAG officers started out in the normal track, they'd make Captain in probably 4-5 years (off the top of my head). Imagine a Lieutenant JAG officer trying to counsel or reprimand a Company Commander (Generally Captains)? Could get awkward if the Captain tried to pull rank. Being a Captain gives the JAG Officer the best shot at avoiding those types of scenarios.