What is the goal in Afghanistan ?

[Gunny]

I agree re freedom and democracy. I think with regard to Iraq, we had 3 choices. Keep Saddam, remove Saddam and put another dictator in power or put democracy in place and leave troops there 100 years. All the options listed are better than what we did.

Never been bashful on this one. Going into Iraq was stupid. It was a strategic, tactical and geopolitical disaster from the word go. We had Saddam contained and THAT was our best option.

Invading caused enough problems. But it was still controllable right up to Barry claiming victory and pulling the only stable force out. Just compounding one f*ckup with a more costly and disastrous one.

Those idiots have been fighting since when the Hell ever over their turf. They've been expanding into the West since the Greeks ruled. Only way to stop them is kill them. We can leave Afghanistan and claim whatever. Just a matter of time for us them. They're all over Europe already.

[aboutime]

All war is futile, and stupid. Since time began. There has never REALLY been a Winner of any war. Only politicians, and anarchists get the spoils, and the people keep dying.

Contrary to what I believe...most civilians think. People in the Military DO NOT WANT TO GO TO WAR. They tend to Die.

[Black Diamond]

[Gunny]

All war is futile, and stupid. Since time began. There has never REALLY been a Winner of any war. Only politicians, and anarchists get the spoils, and the people keep dying.

Contrary to what I believe...most civilians think. People in the Military DO NOT WANT TO GO TO WAR. They tend to Die.

Couple of points. Those who "want" war have never been to one. I don't recall having any fun. The "never have been's", snowflake doves, and people who don't understand war assume automatically that being willing to do what is ultimately THEIR dirty work doesn't mean "wanting" shit.

War is only futile if it is misused. We started sucking at war when our politicians lost their balls and wouldn't stick with a job to the end. Don't like the answers to what's got to be done to win a war? Ask the questions BEFORE starting some half-ass shit.

[michiganFats]

and what does victory look like/can it be achieved?

The goal is nation building. I've seen it worded different ways but that's what it is. We want a strong, pro-Western central government in Afghanistan and we won't get that because that doesn't reflect the will of their people. Managing Afghanistan is really a job for the CIA, not the military.

[revelarts]

and what does victory look like/can it be achieved?

Why haven't three presidents understood that?
what are other motives

QUOTE=hjmick "Hubris."
agreed AND...

>To control the land to create the TAPI natural Gas pipeline through Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Indian and others
>Get the poppy production going. ---up 90% since fall of Taliban, and now Afghanistan is the world's largest supplier of heroin, troops protecting poppy fields and NATO planes flying out TONS of drugs etc---
>Secure the land for other newly discovered resources such as rare earth minerals that are used in computer/phone manufacturing.
>Part of the "Great Game" for control/influence of central Asia by the western powers vs Russia (or vs true national independence for the various countries in the region)
>staying secures another long border jumping off point into Iran if the U.S. ever decides that Iran is being too independent or too powerful...doh I MEAN "a threat" to the U.S. mainland.
>extra points ... keeps the Military industrial complex busy, 16 years -and counting- of uninterrupted cash flow.

so yeah, all the above.
let the denials begin.

[michiganFats]

QUOTE=hjmick "Hubris."
agreed AND...

>To control the land to create the TAPI natural Gas pipeline through Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Indian and others
>Get the poppy production going. ---up 90% since fall of Taliban, and now Afghanistan is the world's largest supplier of heroin, troops protecting poppy fields and NATO planes flying out TONS of drugs etc---
>Secure the land for other newly discovered resources such as rare earth minerals that are used in computer/phone manufacturing.
>Part of the "Great Game" for control/influence of central Asia by the western powers vs Russia (or vs true national independence for the various countries in the region)
>staying secures another long border jumping off point into Iran if the U.S. ever decides that Iran is being too independent or too powerful...doh I MEAN "a threat" to the U.S. mainland.
>extra points ... keeps the Military industrial complex busy, 16 years -and counting- of uninterrupted cash flow.

so yeah, all the above.
let the denials begin.

Poppy fields and keeping contractors busy and profitable, that's about it.

[Gunny]

Poppy fields and keeping contractors busy and profitable, that's about it.

Rev thinks we're the bad guys. His cynicism is however QUITE selective, and rotational. One thread he's crying "Constitution" and the next excessive force by people trying to enforce the laws in it.

I think he just likes to see his words in print and Rowdy Roddy Piper's face in his avatar. That man-crush goes back YEARS (actually, He identifies himself with Piper's character in a WWE "C" movie "They Live" where Piper has special glasses that allow him to be the only one to see the "truth" -- a fascist world run by automatons). If you get the chance to see the movie ... DON'T.

[michiganFats]

Rev thinks we're the bad guys. His cynicism is however QUITE selective, and rotational. One thread he's crying "Constitution" and the next excessive force by people trying to enforce the laws in it.

I think he just likes to see his words in print and Rowdy Roddy Piper's face in his avatar. That man-crush goes back YEARS (actually, He identifies himself with Piper's character in a WWE "C" movie "They Live" where Piper has special glasses that allow him to be the only one to see the "truth" -- a fascist world run by automatons). If you get the chance to see the movie ... DON'T.

He's not wrong about the poppies though. Ask anyone who set foot in Afghanistan what the one thing you can't fuck with is, they will all say the poppy fields.

[Gunny]

He's not wrong about the poppies though. Ask anyone who set foot in Afghanistan what the one thing you can't fuck with is, they will all say the poppy fields.

Nope, he isn't always wrong. Just the way he goes about it sometimes. I mentioned the poppies without going in depth.

It's their main cash crop. The President's brother is one of the biggest dust dealers in the country and uses US assets to protect his shipments. We knew that before going in, and before any deal was struck. As far as our so-called virtuosity goes, bit of tarnish on the brass turning that blind eye.

[Black Diamond]

Rev thinks we're the bad guys. His cynicism is however QUITE selective, and rotational. One thread he's crying "Constitution" and the next excessive force by people trying to enforce the laws in it.

I think he just likes to see his words in print and Rowdy Roddy Piper's face in his avatar. That man-crush goes back YEARS (actually, He identifies himself with Piper's character in a WWE "C" movie "They Live" where Piper has special glasses that allow him to be the only one to see the "truth" -- a fascist world run by automatons). If you get the chance to see the movie ... DON'T.

I'm still embarrassed because I thought the MFer was Marty McFly from back to the future.

[michiganFats]

Nope, he isn't always wrong. Just the way he goes about it sometimes. I mentioned the poppies without going in depth.

It's their main cash crop. The President's brother is one of the biggest dust dealers in the country and uses US assets to protect his shipments. We knew that before going in, and before any deal was struck. As far as our so-called virtuosity goes, bit of tarnish on the brass turning that blind eye.

I don't know how you see it but I see it as more than just a blind eye. Our government lied to our soldiers from the very beginning. Men who thought they were defending their country were really just fighting for poppies. I'm not writing this off as just a misunderstanding or a difference of opinion. Our government lied to our soldiers and Rev is right...for the most part...over why we're there.

[Gunny]

I don't know how you see it but I see it as more than just a blind eye. Our government lied to our soldiers from the very beginning. Men who thought they were defending their country were really just fighting for poppies. I'm not writing this off as just a misunderstanding or a difference of opinion. Our government lied to our soldiers and Rev is right...for the most part...over why we're there.

I don't think they were "just fighting for poppies". I think the initial intent was to get bin Laden, then the Taliban. To go after the Taliban, there has to be an opposition "democracy/government" in waiting for us to support. Otherwise we have no grounds to enter Afghanistan.

The devil's in the details ... and the politics. Who's going to deal with us? The faction that has the most to gain. So we officially pretend we don't see the dope. That would complicate our selling point. Just another part of politics that annoys the f*ck out of me. We think we have to sell this "we're the good guys" crap to the world.

No we ain't. We wanted revenge. Get it and get out and quit playing this Holier than thou sh*t. Screw with us, we'll f*ck up your day. Screw with us again we'll come back and do it again.

Problem is, the government we cannot sustain itself without the poppy crop.

[michiganFats]

I don't think they were "just fighting for poppies". I think the initial intent was to get bin Laden, then the Taliban. To go after the Taliban, there has to be an opposition "democracy/government" in waiting for us to support. Otherwise we have no grounds to enter Afghanistan.

The devil's in the details ... and the politics. Who's going to deal with us? The faction that has the most to gain. So we officially pretend we don't see the dope. That would complicate our selling point. Just another part of politics that annoys the f*ck out of me. We think we have to sell this "we're the good guys" crap to the world.

No we ain't. We wanted revenge. Get it and get out and quit playing this Holier than thou sh*t. Screw with us, we'll f*ck up your day. Screw with us again we'll come back and do it again.

Problem is, the government we cannot sustain itself without the poppy crop.

I don't think we ever would have gone had the Taliban not burned poppy fields.

[Black Diamond]

I don't think we ever would have gone had the Taliban not burned poppy fields.

I don't see America standing for that. We will just do nothing after this raghead killed 3000 people ?