If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

[Gunny]

So Jesus did not die for us. Ok.

I agree.

Strange though that you would eliminate or deny the crucifixion and sacrifice instead of just admitting that there I something wrong with the story of Jesus.

Regards
DL

Not very bright, eh? The death of the flesh is NOT the death of the soul. Something you appear to be well on your way to finding out.

Nothing I have said denies either the crucifixion nor the sacrifice. The crucifixion is historical fact and the sacrifice as obvious as your ignorance. Canc that --- your stupidity because you know better. Not sure His sacrifice applies to you since you constantly deny Him, but THAT is not my judgement to make.

[aboutime]

<img src="http://gnosticwarrior.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/false-teachers.jpg">

<img src="http://images.slideplayer.com/16/5095757/slides/slide_9.jpg">

<img src="https://i.ytimg.com/vi/wpoNPndRTVI/maxresdefault.jpg">

[darin]

Short answer: yep. That was the purpose of the cross. Since that happened christ closed up hell and "death" and cast it away and it is nomore. Neat eh?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Jesus became sin and died.

So Jesus was 100% man, 100% God and 100% sin.

Too ridiculous to reply to.

Regards
DL

Gnostic doesn't want us to remember that Jesus Died for Our Sins. Gnostic IMO, is a phony prophet, not unlike Jim Jones, or the Leader of Scientology...L. Ron Hubbard. Terribly intelligent Idiots.

Not really. I just wonder how all you guys can ignore this biblical wisdom and justice which negate your use of a scapegoat.

You are calling these quotes lies.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.


Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.


Not that any here care that they are ignoring much of scriptures.

Regards
DL

umm Gnostic are you married? Have you ever given all your wages/pay check to your wife?
Why are you acting as if wages aren't transferable to those that didn't do the work for them?
It's not a difficult concept. And It's not a hidden concept, the apostles text over and over again clearly says that's exactly what happened.

2 Corinthians

"We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

the whole living metaphor of the Mosesic sacrificial system is employed to describe it in the book of Hebrews especially but it's also mentioned in nearly ever new testament book.
The sacrifice/death of the innocent/clean/unblemished/holy/SINLESS animal is substituted for the death of the guilty offender.
John the baptist said when he saw Jesus as an adult "Behold the LAMB of GOD that takes away the sin of the world."

Gnostic you have to want to miss that idea not to see that.

I just put three quotes in that last post. They indicate that your sins and pay are your own and not transferable.

Are you ready to ignore them all just to keep your se on your scapegoat Jesus?

Your are a bright guy.
Tell us, who is more likely to use substitutionary punishment as justice, Satan or God?

Regards
DL

Not very bright, eh? The death of the flesh is NOT the death of the soul. Something you appear to be well on your way to finding out.

Nothing I have said denies either the crucifixion nor the sacrifice. The crucifixion is historical fact and the sacrifice as obvious as your ignorance. Canc that --- your stupidity because you know better. Not sure His sacrifice applies to you since you constantly deny Him, but THAT is not my judgement to make.

Only fools think the bible has real history.

Yet you have judged that a genocidal son murdering God is a good God.

Genocide is good. Who knew. Christians. No onder so many churches are closing.

Regards
DL

[revelarts]

Not really. I just wonder how all you guys can ignore this biblical wisdom and justice which negate your use of a scapegoat.
You are calling these quotes lies.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.[/COLOR][/SIZE]Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.[
Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Not that any here care that they are ignoring much of scriptures.

I just put three quotes in that last post. They indicate that your sins and pay are your own and not transferable.
Are you ready to ignore them all just to keep your sin on your scapegoat Jesus?

DL seem obvious you're the one ignoring scriptures.
Multiple scriptures make it clear in the extreme that the "sins of the world" are transferred to Jesus and applied to all "who believe".

but to be be clear, the verses you quote do not say that sins aren't transferable to Anything or Anyone else.
They say they are not transferable from FATHERS to SON or vis versa.
the Scripture is making it clear what God does and does not accept as payment for sins.

So how is it that you jump over all the verses in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy that clearly talk about the many various rituals and sacrifices that ARE available for the people and the nation to TRANSFER their sins to something else... to be cleansed of their sins... to be forgiven... and NOT DIE.

And you even use the term "Scapegoat" to try and DENY that sins are transferable. But the term scapegoat is taken from the book of Leviticus and is just ANOTHER clear living/working metaphor for what Jesus did in a FINAL way.
That is, transfer the sins of the people to himself so that he'd bear the punishment for us all.

Leviticus 16:20

“When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat.He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat’s head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task.The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place; and the man shall release it in the wilderness...

Your are a bright guy.
Tell us, who is more likely to use substitutionary punishment as justice, Satan or God?

So the choice is,
Would God be more likely to create a merciful substituionary sytem and finally become man and take the full substitutionary punishment for the sins of his fallen creatures to redeem his creation?
Or Would the fallen angel Satan pretend to be God who becomes a man and take the substitutionary punishment for the sins of other fallen creatures.

I'd have to say God would be more likely.
How about you DL?

Only fools think the bible has real history.
Yet you have judged that a genocidal son murdering God is a good God.
Genocide is good. Who knew. Christians. No onder so many churches are closing.

So Jesus was 100% man, 100% God and 100% sin.
Too ridiculous to reply to.

John1:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
...14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
...29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

whether or not you like it or want to believe it or not is between you and God.
but don't pretend the message is unclear DL.

[darin]

why are you using scripture to debate somebody who doesn't believe in the source you're using? #weird Who gives a shit what that guy believes - I am POSITIVE Christ doesn't need anyone here to defend Him. Plus, like...he's already won. So instead of beating Gnostic up with debate, just LOVE the guy.

[revelarts]

why are you using scripture to debate somebody who doesn't believe in the source you're using? #weird Who gives a shit what that guy believes - I am POSITIVE Christ doesn't need anyone here to defend Him. Plus, like...he's already won. So instead of beating Gnostic up with debate, just LOVE the guy.

He's asked several questions about our beliefs.

"If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?
...Are you ready to ignore them all just to keep your sin on your scapegoat Jesus?" etc etc

replying by saying something like "we luuvs youuu DL, but i won't answer you're widdle questions, casues they are so silly... you poor silly billy... just wuvvv Jesus like we do... " seems a bit condescending

so I'd rather try and PRETEND and HOPE that his questions do come from a serious sincere place.
And that somewhere behind the doges and prepackaged Q and A there is a REAL person that's thinking about what he's writing and what he's reading.

So i'll answer some of his post outright.
And The apostles and prophets eyewitness testimonies and teaching found in the scripture are the reason I believe what i do. so that's why i use scripture. including the bits about loving ALL others.
Plus scripture says that the word of God is POWERFUL in and of ITSELF.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Also DL seems to align himself with Satan as an alternative "truth teller". And when Jesus confronted Satan he didn't "just love him" Jesus quoted scripture to refute Satan. When Jesus replied to Pharisees who misused Scripture Jesus USED Scripture to reply not just "love". Speaking the truth in love is not an inappropriate or useless response to lies, especially lies about God, his nature, desires or dealings.

Also Jesus never said we had to "win" he told us get the message of who he is and his salvation out clearly.
What people do with it after that is between them and God.

But God always wins Darin.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

DL seem obvious you're the one ignoring scriptures.
Multiple scriptures make it clear in the extreme that the "sins of the world" are transferred to Jesus and applied to all "who believe".

but to be be clear, the verses you quote do not say that sins aren't transferable to Anything or Anyone else.
They say they are not transferable from FATHERS to SON or vis versa.
the Scripture is making it clear what God does and does not accept as payment for sins.

So how is it that you jump over all the verses in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy that clearly talk about the many various rituals and sacrifices that ARE available for the people and the nation to TRANSFER their sins to something else... to be cleansed of their sins... to be forgiven... and NOT DIE.

And you even use the term "Scapegoat" to try and DENY that sins are transferable. But the term scapegoat is taken from the book of Leviticus and is just ANOTHER clear living/working metaphor for what Jesus did in a FINAL way.
That is, transfer the sins of the people to himself so that he'd bear the punishment for us all.

Leviticus 16:20

“When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat.He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat’s head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task.The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place; and the man shall release it in the wilderness...

So the choice is,
Would God be more likely to create a merciful substituionary sytem and finally become man and take the full substitutionary punishment for the sins of his fallen creatures to redeem his creation?
Or Would the fallen angel Satan pretend to be God who becomes a man and take the substitutionary punishment for the sins of other fallen creatures.

I'd have to say God would be more likely.
How about you DL?



John1:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
...14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
...29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

whether or not you like it or want to believe it or not is between you and God.
but don't pretend the message is unclear DL.

Two things.

The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

That says that sins are not transferable.

To you main question.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.


Regards
DL

[revelarts]

Two things.
The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

That says that sins are not transferable.

that says you've deliberately ignored all the rest.

If a will says that "The home is not transferable anyone, except the elder son and his heirs."
The other children and the state or causal readers are simply not being honest if they say "it's says 'It's not transferable' therefore it's not transferable AT ALL"
They are LYING to others ...and themselves if they seriously believe that.

To you main question.
Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

When the innocent person volunteers out of love, it's not immoral at all. Love and forgiveness trumps sin/immorality.
What's immoral and ungrateful are people ignoring, denying and mocking the sacrifice made for them.

[Gunny]

So Jesus was 100% man, 100% God and 100% sin.

Too ridiculous to reply to.

Regards
DL



Not really. I just wonder how all you guys can ignore this biblical wisdom and justice which negate your use of a scapegoat.

You are calling these quotes lies.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.


Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.


Not that any here care that they are ignoring much of scriptures.

Regards
DL



I just put three quotes in that last post. They indicate that your sins and pay are your own and not transferable.

Are you ready to ignore them all just to keep your se on your scapegoat Jesus?

Your are a bright guy.
Tell us, who is more likely to use substitutionary punishment as justice, Satan or God?

Regards
DL



Only fools think the bible has real history.

Yet you have judged that a genocidal son murdering God is a good God.

Genocide is good. Who knew. Christians. No onder so many churches are closing.

Regards
DL

I haven't judged a thing, f*ckwit. YOU appear to be the one judging others constantly, coming up with some pulled-out-your-a$$, twisted BS on neverending basis. WHO is the false prophet and preacher here?

You are wrong about the historical context of the Bible. It is indeed history. Just not one you want to hear.

Tell the truth ... The Man is God theory is just convenient to those who consider themselves supreme and unaccountable to a higher power. Rules are inconvenient for you, huh? So you have this wordsmithed fairly tale you spend all your time trying to foist on others. Registered that religion of yours, yet?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

that says you've deliberately ignored all the rest.

If a will says that "The home is not transferable anyone, except the elder son and his heirs."
The other children and the state or causal readers are simply not being honest if they say "it's says 'It's not transferable' therefore it's not transferable AT ALL"
They are LYING to others ...and themselves if they seriously believe that.




When the innocent person volunteers out of love, it's not immoral at all. Love and forgiveness trumps sin/immorality.
What's immoral and ungrateful are people ignoring, denying and mocking the sacrifice made for them.

If you would not step up to your own responsibility for your own actions and would let an innocent person suffer in your stead, you are not much of a moral man.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I haven't judged a thing, f*ckwit. YOU appear to be the one judging others constantly, coming up with some pulled-out-your-a$$, twisted BS on neverending basis. WHO is the false prophet and preacher here?

You are wrong about the historical context of the Bible. It is indeed history. Just not one you want to hear.

Tell the truth ... The Man is God theory is just convenient to those who consider themselves supreme and unaccountable to a higher power. Rules are inconvenient for you, huh? So you have this wordsmithed fairly tale you spend all your time trying to foist on others. Registered that religion of yours, yet?

Your fairy tale includes a talking serpent and donkey while mine does not.

Who is believing that fairy tales represent reality?

Not me. You do.

Regards
DL

[revelarts]

If you would not step up to your own responsibility for your own actions and would let an innocent person suffer in your stead, you are not much of a moral man.

Regards
DL

the fact that I am not a very moral man is the reason I need help.
I don't have the power to "step up" and save myself.
The best i can do is take my punishment, or alternativly take the gift of forgiveness given in love and be grateful.
The other thing is, not only did God/Jesus take our punishment voluntarily and paid the debt, He was able to take it, DIE But then COME BACK from it.
So though he as an innocent took the FULL weight of punishment of the guilty he was able to bear the full punishment, get it over with and return practically unscarred from the deed. Something that I ...no one else... could not do.
So it's "WIN WIN" not "I win you lose" DL.

[gabosaurus]

[aboutime]

Your fairy tale includes a talking serpent and donkey while mine does not.

Who is believing that fairy tales represent reality?

Not me. You do.

Regards
DL

You just exposed yourself there, Gnostic. If you insist we have fairy tales, then you say "while mine does not"...tell us about your fairy tales? Too bad you call what you believe as Fairy Tales, while we Christians don't believe in fairy tales, while FAITH (unseen) guides us throughout our lives.
Want to tell us what YOUR favorite FAIRY TALE might be???