Want Socialized Medicine? Great. I'd Be Dead

[diuretic]

I think we'll wind up with a two tier system, eventually. I like a lot of changes I've seen recently, but with the government, efficiency leads to cut backs. Their motto should be 'if it works, break it'.

A two-tier system has developed, sort of accidentally here and it seems to work. I think health care is one of those things that needs to be sorted out without the strictures of ideology.

[diuretic]

You speak for all taxpayers in your country?

What a strange question. No, not really a question is it, more of an assumption coiled up inside a challenge. But to answer it - of course not. I speak only for myself. Now, given we have compulsory voting at our federal and state elections I think I can say that the overwhelming number of people in this country would agree with me. Note - I'm not claiming to speak for all taxpayers, merely pointing out that my voice is among the overwhelming majority.

What is seen as a right there does not make a legal right here.

Of course not. I didn't make that claim.

[diuretic]

I'm sure everything over there is just hunky-dorey. So you have no respect for our culture then.

Of course it's not hunky-dorey, there's a lot wrong with our country and most of it has to do with the last eleven years of conservative mis-government

As for not respecting American culture, no, that's not right. Having visited for reasonable lengths of time (no substitute for living and working there I will admit readily) I understand that there's not one American culture as so many people outside the US think. There are many, many cultures. People who only see the US through film and tv have this twisted view of your country. When they go there they realise just how crooked that view is.

One of the things I like about the general US culture is the individuality. I think that can be taken too far though, it can become a crippling shibboleth. But I always appreciate the tolerance Americans show for difference.

There's more I admire but I don't want to sound sucky.

[diuretic]

No shit we Americans have our way and everyone else can take the highway. We turned European politics on its head in 1776 and we ain't stopping anytime soon, as least as far as we red bloods are concerned.

Now that's the sort of "ugly American" comment that gets other people's backs up. You're entitled to that view, as factually wrong as it is. In 1776 the independence of the British colonies in America had little effect in Europe. Europe was in turmoil itself, there were mini-revolutions happening all over the show. That Britain finally decided to leave its southern North American colonies meant Britain was able to recall troops for its much needed European campaigns.

[KarlMarx]

So right now all of England and France and Canada and Norway and etc. all have longer life spans and better health than US residents because their government healthcare systems don't work? Riiiiight. Can you guys mail me some of what you're smoking?

I have a grandmother who lives in Italy and they have socialized medicine. Recently, my uncle nearly died after they the doctors kept sending him back home rather than treat his illness.

H.C.... perhaps you can offer a link that offers a counterpoint to this article..

....

London's Observer (3/3/02) carried a story saying that an "unpublished report shows some patients are now having to wait more than eight months for treatment, during which time many of their cancers become incurable." Another story said, "According to a World Health Organisation report to be published later this year, around 10,000 British people die unnecessarily from cancer each year -- three times as many as are killed on our roads."

....

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/W...lized_medicine

[avatar4321]

Now that's the sort of "ugly American" comment that gets other people's backs up. You're entitled to that view, as factually wrong as it is. In 1776 the independence of the British colonies in America had little effect in Europe. Europe was in turmoil itself, there were mini-revolutions happening all over the show. That Britain finally decided to leave its southern North American colonies meant Britain was able to recall troops for its much needed European campaigns.

oh please. The French Revolution was a direct result of the American Revolution. and that changed the face of Europe completely.

[diuretic]

oh please. The French Revolution was a direct result of the American Revolution. and that changed the face of Europe completely.

I don't think so. The American Revolution was economic as much as it was political. The colonies had grown up, they got cranky with the British (and rightly so) and booted them out. Your country gained its independence. The French Revolution was an overthrow of a complete regime internally. It was driven not so much by mercantilist economic factors as a desire to see an end to the absolutism of the French monarchy and its feudal system and for it to be replaced by what we'd call a more democratic form of government and a fairer economic system. I won't get into the details of what happened later as it's not relevant. But if you're arguing that there was a direct link between the American Revolution and the French Revolution then I'd say that's a pretty long bow you're pulling on.

Now, as for the effect if the revolution in France on the rest of Europe, yes, it had a major effect.

[diuretic]

Back to the topic. You know it's really straightforward. Rather than quote articles at each other why not stick to the basics. The US seems to prefer a health system which is operated for profit by private companies on a user pays basis. Much of the rest of the world (I'm generalising) prefers a socialised approach to funding health care delivery which can take various forms.

The US consistently lags many other countries in key indicators of public health. It lags behind other countries with far less wealthy economies. That's because top class health care is available to those who can afford it while those who can't afford it have to get what they can. The elites, the corporate and political elites, are doing fine. They can afford the finest health care in the US and they buy it. But the finest health care in the US isn't available to those who can't afford it. If that's how you like it then fine, no problems. But don't express cynicism about those world-wide key indicators of public health. Some of us think health care isn't a right, that it should be purchased, like any other commodity and if you can't afford to buy it then you go without or you get second-rate care. Some of us think that access to good health care is part of the social contract and its cost should be borne by society. Fine, go with what works for you.

[Said1]

A two-tier system has developed, sort of accidentally here and it seems to work. I think health care is one of those things that needs to be sorted out without the strictures of ideology.

How does your two teir system work?

The interesting thing about the present situation in Calgary is that they want a two teir system. They should have one in places such as British Collumbia because they do pay a premium that is based on income. Vancouver has had trouble keeping up with demandes, they would benefit from privately owned (or whatever) hospitals and private insurance in order to keep up with the demande. They've also had massive population fluxuations over the last 20 yrs as well as Toronto, Ottawa and now Calgary.

In Ontario, where I live, we're handed everything. We're spoiled and just happen to be part of the industrial, financial and political core of the country. What I see happening (and this may be the case where you are) is that 1. as I alread mentioned, health care facilities have trouble adapting to transients. That is, the inflow and outflow of people across the country varies greatly throughout one decade. By the time changes are implemented they are outdated and needed elewhere. This ovbiously poses problems and private clinics and hospitals (however under the governments thumb they may be) would help ease the load and private insurance would cut costs, doing nothing to degrade the present system as it is now. 2. Our population is also growing rapidly through immigration, an expenisve universal system can not be sustained, which is also evident given recent cut backs for certain services. On the bright side, private insurance is a little more useful as private clinics have been allowed to operate within the province. 3. with all the changes, spending, cutt backs and so on, rural populations get shafted each and everytime. Some of these people would benefit from private insurance which would provide the opportunity to go outt of the province for services they can't get in their own province, for whatever reason.

These are consistent problems mild legislative changeswith respect to privatization and price capping would ease - without hurting the present system! I'm all for a two tier systme myself. Presently, I have private insurance and Provincial coverage.

[emmett]

Dr. Martin's office, may I help you!

Yes, this is Mrs. Johnson here in Ruralville, USA. I need to schedule an appointment to have a hangnail removed please.

OK Mrs. johnson, what is you GIVN (Government Issued Verification Number)?

Huh?

Your GIVN Mrs. Johnson. We have to have that number to verify you have been authorized by the government to have this operation. There is a waiting list of 6 to 12 months mam for non-life threatening surgery. If Dr; Martin were to perform this operation without government approval he would loose his license and possible go to jail.

What?

Yes Mam. The New National Health Care Program requires a pre-screen determination by a Government doctor to see if surgery is necessary or not.

Necessary! I have a hangnail growing down into my finger so bad it oozes pus out of it. It bleeds, I can't hold anything, drive or even prepare meals for my family.

I'm sorry Mrs. Johnson. That is the law. Dr. Martin is an authorized screener however. Could you come in two weeks from Tuesday and have the injury evaluated, maybe at 10:30am.

Two Weeks! I will have Gang Green by then.

I'm sorry mam! It isn't a life threatening injury and waiting lists are very long. What about going to the Emergency Room in Ruralvile?

We don't have an Emergency Room in Ruralville. I would have go to Metropolis for that. That's 132 miles away.

Oh No mam. Metropolis does not have an Emergency Room Care anylonger. They are understaffed. You would have to go to Big City Town for that.

Oh my God!

Mrs. Johnson! I want to help you. Please don't say I said anything but there is a doctor who can perform your surgery. He's very expensive you understand. He also requires you wear a hood over your head when you see him so he cannot be identified.

I'll do anything at this point.

I understand.

It's a good thing I don't have a more serious injury.

Yes Maam, it certainly is! Let me get you that number, hang on.

Beep Beep.......Click.....Click.....Beep (the sound of the Health Care Police tapping the doctors phone)