My daughter-in-law got thrown out of church!?

[jimnyc]

Wow, that's crazy. Tossed from church? Unless breaking a law, being extremely disruptive or similar, I can't imagine a good church doing that. I certainly wouldn't return.

When I was much much younger, we used to go almost weekly to a catholic church in Forked River, NJ, where my grandparents live. My grandmother never learned to drive, so when my grandfather died, we very often would visit and take her to church.

Well, my grandmother was friendly with the folks that all worked there and what not, and as a result they kinda knew our family. So when my Dad divorced, and then took his 4 kids to church, apparently the priest thought it appropriate to kind of embarrass my father with his sermon, even if not called out by name.

I was very young, so I don't remember, I was likely busy watching the clock, or reading on my own through the various books.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Well, my grandmother was friendly with the folks that all worked there and what not, and as a result they kinda knew our family. So when my Dad divorced, and then took his 4 kids to church, apparently the priest thought it appropriate to kind of embarrass my father with his sermon, even if not called out by name.

That's fucked up.

[Gunny]

I agree with that bro, but for crying out loud, just raising your arm? Isn't halting the sermon just to excoriate that person a little extreme just for raising your arm? Seems to me it is. I'd have stood up and walked out without being asked to leave, and probably left a few choice words for the preacher on the way out.


Just my two cents.

I don't know. Never seen anyone do it. We had unwritten rules and complied with them. And if everyone else is not doing it, you probably don't need to. I can't imagine waving my arms to the music in church. I don't see the point to it. It WOULD stand out in the churches I went to.

[Abbey Marie]

Seems to me y'all are being judgmental of that pastor/church. Goes both ways

The congregation decides what is acceptable and not. I've never seen a visitor treated that way, but if it is determined that one person's behavior is disrupting the service for all, then I take no issue with that person being asked to comply. That's just common courtesy and that is all the issue amounts to.

Really? I'd be interested to hear how you can defend this Pastor for calling her out publicly during a service. Customs or not, at the very least, he could have spoken to her privately afterwards, or if he ever saw her again. Instead, he chose to embarrass her- for the audacity to praise God in church. It's like he thought the ceiling would fall in if she raised her hands.

[Abbey Marie]

I don't know. Never seen anyone do it. We had unwritten rules and complied with them. And if everyone else is not doing it, you probably don't need to. I can't imagine waving my arms to the music in church. I don't see the point to it. It WOULD stand out in the churches I went to.

It's not done to make a "point". It's something that you feel in the moment. Either you feel it or you don't. If you can't imagine it, don't do it. Unlike this Pastor, no one will judge you for not ​doing it.

[mundame]

Thanks to all for the many very interesting perspectives!

I am leaning toward thinking this pastor was a very controlling and rather harsh person; and/or that he wanted everyone's attention on him alone. Getting himself confused with God up there at the pulpit.

[Black Diamond]

It's not done to make a "point". It's something that you feel in the moment. Either you feel it or you don't. If you can't imagine it, don't do it. Unlike this Pastor, no one will judge you for not ​doing it.

I am surprised by the call out. But wouldn't have been surprised by stares and a talking to afterwards. I have been in churches from one end of the spectrum to the other. Places have different attitudes toward expressive worship.... Or lack thereof.

[aboutime]

Sounds to me like that church is more concerned with HOW THEY APPEAR, as in Political Correctness, than actually worshipping God.

Those who go to such a church...TO IMPRESS the others there, are hypocrites. The pastor should happily Welcome Everyone, no matter how they show their Faith.

Just my opinion, and reminded me of when I was little, going to a Baptist Church.
I had become afraid of going, and sitting with the rest of the Sunday School class at the beginning of the Sermon...because I thought they BAPTISED everybody every Sunday. I was afraid of the water behind the Minister. Honestly!

[darin]

I see your point, but disagree. People "know God" as they are taught to. "Knowing God" and conforming to accepted norms are two separate things; although, interwoven.

I was taught you dress up in dress clothes (your finest rainments) to go into the Lord's House. Others see it differently. God is love, but also is "all things to all people".

As opposed to the thread title, the woman was not denied a seat in a house of worship. She was simply instructed on how to conduct herself. They don't allow food and drinks in most churches either. Slamming a church for having rules of conduct is going a bit far. We follow rules of conduct the second we step outside our doors, and have to follow some even INSIDE our own walls. It's not a stretch in a society based on rules, and a religion based on rules, that there are rules.

If you don't like a church, go somewhere else. If you are a guest, it is merely displaying one's manners to observe their rules, not bring your own.

none of those things speak to my point - without Love, one cannot know God. nothing else matters, ultimately. The guy did not behave in a way that shows people he knows what love is. Ergo - based on the evidence of his behaviour, he doesn't know God.

God doesn't care about our rules, traditions, or conduct. God cares about our love for him and others.

[Gunny]

none of those things speak to my point - without Love, one cannot know God. nothing else matters, ultimately. The guy did not behave in a way that shows people he knows what love is. Ergo - based on the evidence of his behaviour, he doesn't know God.

God doesn't care about our rules, traditions, or conduct. God cares about our love for him and others.

You are basing your argument on YOUR definition of "what God is". That does NOT address the issue of appropriate behavior during services. You're making this big "love" issue out of simply behaving in accordance with your surroundings which ALL men expect of men so we don't all just kill each other whenever someone pisses someone off. You cannot discard proper rules of conduct for people as it suits your argument because we ARE people and you cannot remove us from the equation of Man worshiping God.

I wouldn't go to the church I grew up in because I don't conform to their standards. I see no reason to make an issue of it. They are all for the most part good people as I remember them. I don't like their rules so I don't go there. I don't like movie theaters so I don't go to them either.

This is just a case of looking to be offended. Go somewhere else and I'll wait for the movie to come out on DVD so I can watch it at home with endless cheap popcorn and my feet on the table and 10,000 kids not talking over the movie.

[gabosaurus]

I have to agree with Gunny that no church should have to change its ways because a visitor or newcomer doesn't feel comfortable. Every church does things a certain way. The members must agree or they wouldn't continue attending. The first church service I went to was Catholic, because my college roommate is of that faith. It was very old school, which suited her but not me. My current church recently added a couple who stopped attending their previous church after the pastor began calling out "those who refuse to give what they owe The Lord" in his sermons. No one is required to attend any church. Or attend at all. It's an individual choice.

[Gunny]

I have to agree with Gunny that no church should have to change its ways because a visitor or newcomer doesn't feel comfortable. Every church does things a certain way. The members must agree or they wouldn't continue attending. The first church service I went to was Catholic, because my college roommate is of that faith. It was very old school, which suited her but not me. My current church recently added a couple who stopped attending their previous church after the pastor began calling out "those who refuse to give what they owe The Lord" in his sermons. No one is required to attend any church. Or attend at all. It's an individual choice.

Gee thanks. Now I REALLY feel like the bad guy. Gabby agreed with me

I think the issue here is reality vs idealism. I try to not let Man's reality taint my ideals. Ideally, everyone would just get along and knock off the drama over immaterial BS. I don't agree with a lot of things different churches have done. So I quit going to them. Problem solved.

I do not feel it is right to be made feel unwelcome in the House of the Lord. I also do not feel that it is okay for the individual to demand the conformity of, or impose up the majority; which, is the theme behind ALL of my political arguments as well as any other argument.

I can tell most of y'all would HATE the church I was raised in . Bunch of old blue-hairs of which your grandmother was one and your mother, the organist, in training to be one. Grandfather was a Deacon and Superintendent of Sunday Schools. Everybody knew everybody else's business, true or not . But that's the way it was and we were fine with it.

I don't remember anyone ever being made to feel unwelcome. I also don't remember anyone doing anything much out of the norm.

[Kathianne]

I agree that the pastor calling her out was wrong, on the other hand it seems to me there is a comparison to be made regarding respecting the norms of others, such as those who don't care for everything now in Spanish.

There are plenty of churches that would be a good fit for nearly anyone, just got to find where she's comfortable. That church isn't it.

[tailfins]

We are puzzled and dismayed about this religious issue -- maybe someone can explain it.

My daughter-in-law visited her brother and his family and offered to take the little niece to Sunday School. They aren't religious but thought she would enjoy it (and she had a great time, fortunately, not knowing of the fireworks in the sanctuary).

This was a Baptist church. During the sermon, my DIL started waving her arm in praise. My own history is Methodist and we never did that but daughter and DIL have long gone to the sort of churches that meet in movie theaters or store fronts and they do. It's not wild behavior: just a sort of ritualized limp waving, as I've seen it.

The minister stopped abruptly and said right in the congregation for her to stop doing that: they don't wave arms in this church! She stopped and said she was sorry, but then got mad and rethought it and said no one could tell her how she could or couldn't praise Jesus, and left the sanctuary.

Well, darn. We always thought Baptists were............looser, more enthusiastic maybe, than that. This sounds downright Episcopal, rigid. No one was rolling around or shrieking in tongues, after all --- both of which I've seen or heard of, in days of yore.

What do you all think of this? She posted the story on Facebook, and her friends said she ought to come to their churches.

Were they German Baptist? If so, they are just a shade away from being Amish. Stuffy churches like the one mentioned above are getting more and more elderly with lower and lower attendance. My father-in-law is the exact opposite: Before he retired, he was a pastor in Brazil. His church was known for sobering up drunks and drug addicts, protecting prostitutes from their pimps, giving a change of clothes to the homeless, etc. It was "come as you are" and in any condition. The churches he planted always grew quickly and were generally full.

[darin]

You are basing your argument on YOUR definition of "what God is". That does NOT address the issue of appropriate behavior during services. You're making this big "love" issue out of simply behaving in accordance with your surroundings which ALL men expect of men so we don't all just kill each other whenever someone pisses someone off. You cannot discard proper rules of conduct for people as it suits your argument because we ARE people and you cannot remove us from the equation of Man worshiping God.

I wouldn't go to the church I grew up in because I don't conform to their standards. I see no reason to make an issue of it. They are all for the most part good people as I remember them. I don't like their rules so I don't go there. I don't like movie theaters so I don't go to them either.

This is just a case of looking to be offended. Go somewhere else and I'll wait for the movie to come out on DVD so I can watch it at home with endless cheap popcorn and my feet on the table and 10,000 kids not talking over the movie.

You're making this big "love" issue...

No, it's no argument. It's fact. It's fact among Christian Churches or the Churches are not Christian. Christian churches believe by necessity God is Love. When the very pastor acts outside of 'love' - even if he is correct - he shows those looking he does not know God. Because he doesn't know Love. If he knew love, Love would have guided him at the very worst to speak to the woman AFTER the service was over. If he knew love, the symptoms would be present. The beauty of Love - the beauty of Grace is this: Life is unfair. Breaking rules are forgiven without consequence or repartitions.

out of simply behaving in accordance with your surroundings which ALL men expect of men so we don't all just kill each other whenever someone pisses someone off.

that makes no sense to me.

"You cannot discard proper rules of conduct for people as it suits your argument because we ARE people and you cannot remove us from the equation of Man worshiping God."

Sure I can. Because Love trumps Rules of conduct for people. Love trumps Arguments. Love trumps People. God is Love. Love is the very nature of God - and if a Christian church IS a christian church, they believe Love and God - and God's love is an all-consuming fire and it purifies and makes things new and is the central aspect of the nature of God.

OR - and this is the ONLY an clear exception to what I just wrote:

"They are not a Christian Church."

The pastor was being a dick. He put rules and tradition and conduct and the church's habits above the Love for the new attendee. He singled her out and caused her embarrassment. LOVE. CANNOT. DO. THOSE. THINGS. Ergo, The pastor displayed Lack of Love - thus, Lack of the knowledge of the nature of God.