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  1. #31
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    I make perfect sense. You are trying to define "God" and set YOUR parameters on Him. You judging the pastor is acting in an un-Christian manner. See how that works? When I become perfect, I'll be sure and lecture you on what being "Christian-like" is. We are ALL sinners and not perfect and subject to "un-Christian" behavior, especially in our society as it is.

    Until then it's not worth arguing about because it has no end and just creates bad blood.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    I make perfect sense. You are trying to define "God" and set YOUR parameters on Him. You judging the pastor is acting in an un-Christian manner. See how that works? When I become perfect, I'll be sure and lecture you on what being "Christian-like" is. We are ALL sinners and not perfect and subject to "un-Christian" behavior, especially in our society as it is.

    Until then it's not worth arguing about because it has no end and just creates bad blood.
    Except that's not the case.

    The pastor's church defines God as "love".
    The pastor's actions are contrary to Love.

    Love and Grace dictate - when Love and Grace are KNOWN to a person - that knowledge COMMANDS the person's actions be affected by the knowledge. The actions are the symptoms of what one really feels deep down in side. The pastor approaching the woman after the service, in private or in a quiet way, are the only symptoms showing the pastor understands what Love is, WHO love is. Calling somebody out in the middle of a service for what amounts to NOTHING means the pastor got his spiritual boners from showing the rest of the congregation how HOLY his is by publicly correcting somebody he's likely never even spoken to.

    I'm judging the pastor's actions - his show things that are not compatible with "Love your neighbor as yourself". You are making excuses for the pastor's lack of love, citing ritual, rules, conduct, justice and the like.

    Loving somebody is THE ONLY THING for christians. In fact, Christ was pretty clear about that when he was asked. Christ said clearly to love God and love others in the same way you love yourself.

    Embarrassing a new attendee is NOT love. Leads me to believe the pastor does not know what love is. If he doesn't know what Love is, he cannot know God - because...say it with me....God IS love. If you want to discredit the truth I'm telling you by calling me a "judger!!!OMG!! OHNO!!!" then so be it. The part about 'we are all sinners' - who gives a shit. Nobody can use "Well, I'm just a sinner like you" as an excuse to be an asshole to a stranger. Because if we are assholes to strangers - the VERB part of that - the asshole-i-ness (I just coined a new word. AssHoliness) shows the entire audience the pastor has no idea who God is. Or if he has an idea who God is, the Love like God isn't part of his life - because nobody who loves can do such a thing as he did.

    Things God is not:

    ...worried about decorum.
    ...worried about tradition.
    ...worried about rules.
    ...worried about 'sin' failures.
    ...worried about how each person interprets who God is.
    ...worried about who waves their hands in church during sincere worship.

    Things God IS:

    ...Love.
    “… the greatest detractor from high performance is fear: fear that you are not prepared, fear that you are in over your head, fear that you are not worthy, and ultimately, fear of failure. If you can eliminate that fear—not through arrogance or just wishing difficulties away, but through hard work and preparation—you will put yourself in an incredibly powerful position to take on the challenges you face" - Pete Carroll.

  3. #33
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    I disagree. God is much more complex than just "love". You cannot simplify God onto one word. Even God does not. This is the US.

    The issue IS Freedom of religion is a RIGHT. Go somewhere that suits you. And,

    There are as many definitions for God as there are people. Yours is but one.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

  4. #34
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    I think everyone has made good points. It's been an interesting discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    I disagree. God is much more complex than just "love". You cannot simplify God onto one word. Even God does not. This is the US.

    The issue IS Freedom of religion is a RIGHT. Go somewhere that suits you. And,

    There are as many definitions for God as there are people. Yours is but one.
    You are talking about a couple different topics here.

    First - doesn't matter what you agree with. THE CHURCH THE WOMAN ATTENDED agrees "God is Love". Love isn't a word, it's a verb. The verb of Love IS who God is. Unfortunately we have to use words to write. So...yeah.

    This is not about freedom of religion - it's about a pastor being a jerk-wad to a young lady he didn't know; and doing it in a public way.

    Antithesis of love. Antithesis of God. God as described by the church the pastor leads.

    American Baptists believe in bringing folks to an understand of God:
    5 American Baptists...have made Christ’s love known in the U.S. and around the world.

    Except in the church in question...Love was not present that day.
    “… the greatest detractor from high performance is fear: fear that you are not prepared, fear that you are in over your head, fear that you are not worthy, and ultimately, fear of failure. If you can eliminate that fear—not through arrogance or just wishing difficulties away, but through hard work and preparation—you will put yourself in an incredibly powerful position to take on the challenges you face" - Pete Carroll.

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by darin View Post
    You are talking about a couple different topics here.

    First - doesn't matter what you agree with. THE CHURCH THE WOMAN ATTENDED agrees "God is Love". Love isn't a word, it's a verb. The verb of Love IS who God is. Unfortunately we have to use words to write. So...yeah.

    This is not about freedom of religion - it's about a pastor being a jerk-wad to a young lady he didn't know; and doing it in a public way.

    Antithesis of love. Antithesis of God. God as described by the church the pastor leads.

    American Baptists believe in bringing folks to an understand of God:
    5 American Baptists...have made Christ’s love known in the U.S. and around the world.

    Except in the church in question...Love was not present that day.
    I think God is much more than just "love."

    He didn't create all that is with love. He's got power we can't fathom, and it has a scope far beyond just love. But that really is another discussion, isn't it.

    This is about a preacher who publicly humiliated an innocent woman in church in front of a bunch of other people simply for raising her arm. Had she stood up and her eyes rolled back and she started swaying and wailing and speaking in tongue and thrashing her arms about, THAT I could understand asking her to stop doing. But simply raising her arm, quietly, while seated... I think it's extreme to stop the sermon, single her out and embarrass her in front of the entire congregation, ya, that preacher was being a DICK, it was totally uncalled for. He could have waited until church was getting out and met her at the door to shake her hand like I remember our preacher doing long ago, and said something like... "it was so nice to see a new face in church today, are you from around here, I was just wondering because, we usually refrain from waving our arms in the air in our church... so nice to see you though, I hope we see you again." THAT is what I would expect from a true Christian PREACHER, if raising ones arm is truly such an egregious violation.
    Last edited by High_Plains_Drifter; 03-21-2018 at 10:13 AM.

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  9. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    I disagree. God is much more complex than just "love". You cannot simplify God onto one word. Even God does not. This is the US.

    The issue IS Freedom of religion is a RIGHT. Go somewhere that suits you. And,

    There are as many definitions for God as there are people. Yours is but one.
    ask sodom and gomorrah how loving God is.

  10. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by High_Plains_Drifter View Post
    I think God is much more than just "love."

    He didn't create all that is with love. He's got power we can't fathom, and it has a scope far beyond just love. But that really is another discussion, isn't it.

    This is about a preacher who publicly humiliated an innocent woman in church in front a bunch of other people simply for raising her arm. Had she stood up and her eyes rolled back and she started swaying and wailing and speaking in tongue and thrashing her arms about, THAT I could understand asking her to stop doing. But simply raising her arm, quietly, while seated... I think it's extreme to stop the sermon, single her out and embarrass her in front of the entire congregation, ya, that preacher was being a DICK, it was totally uncalled for. He could have waited until church was getting out and met her at the door like I remember our preacher doing long ago, and said something like... "it was so nice to see a new face in church today, are you from around here, I was just wondering because, we usually refrain from waving our arms in the air in our church... so nice to see you though, I hope we see you again." THAT is what I would expect from a true Christian PREACHER.
    i know some tongue talkers who should pay this dude a visit. get about 20 of them in there.

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  12. #39
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    Jesus was far from a rule follower. He was criticized for mingling with the wrong sort of folks. He over-turned the tables of the money changers in the temple. This pastor is quite clearly in need of his own spiritual awakening.

    "God is love". 1 John 4:16

    "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love". 1 John 4:8

    I am very sensitive to what goes on during worship. There are flaws in every church, IMO, some much worse than others. From ego issues, to lifeless worship, etc. There is beauty and truth in old time choirs and in contemporary music. The customs and styles do not matter. The only real question is, is the Holy Spirit present? From what Mundame has told us anyway, I'd say no.

    I would run from this church, as I expect the Spirit has.
    After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box - Author unknown

    “Unfortunately, the truth is now whatever the media say it is”
    -Abbey

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  14. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by darin View Post
    You are talking about a couple different topics here.

    First - doesn't matter what you agree with. THE CHURCH THE WOMAN ATTENDED agrees "God is Love". Love isn't a word, it's a verb. The verb of Love IS who God is. Unfortunately we have to use words to write. So...yeah.

    This is not about freedom of religion - it's about a pastor being a jerk-wad to a young lady he didn't know; and doing it in a public way.

    Antithesis of love. Antithesis of God. God as described by the church the pastor leads.

    American Baptists believe in bringing folks to an understand of God:
    5 American Baptists...have made Christ’s love known in the U.S. and around the world.

    Except in the church in question...Love was not present that day.
    It does matter what I agree with. I tried to be nice and walk. You KNOW I won't back down. Not our first rodeo.

    You presume to state what God is and what God's rules are. So does that church. What makes you better? Or different? Nothing. YOU don't define God. The Bibe defines God. It is His word.

    In the Bible, it is stated God is a jealous God. God is vengeful. God is war and God is death and eternal life. He has used fire and brimstone, pestilence, plague, flood and other means to show his displeasure. You don't get to cut out the parts of God as it suits your belief or your argument. That's what you're accusing the pastor of doing. EXACT same thing.

    People go to church to worship God in the way they believe every bit as you do. You are expected to conduct yourself according to Church standards and how that church views worship. If you don't like it, don't go. Pick another church. In this country you have freedom of choice.

    If I wanted a God with parameters I could go to church or ask you. You're doing the exact thing you are being hard-headed about claiming you are against.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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  16. #41
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    My problem isn't that it's unacceptable there. It's how the pastor handled it. A simple "we don't raise our hands during the service " afterwards would have sufficed imo

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  18. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    It does matter what I agree with. I tried to be nice and walk. You KNOW I won't back down. Not our first rodeo.

    You presume to state what God is and what God's rules are.
    Cool. Except I never did that. I wrote Christian churches Must believe the bible. They must believe God is love. They must believe to know God is to know Love. Take it up with the Baptists and the Bible they claim to believe-in.

    So does that church. What makes you better? Or different? Nothing. YOU don't define God. The Bibe defines God. It is His word.

    and the Bible defines God as 'Love'. God as an all-consuming fire. God as eternal. Yep. Been saying that. glad you're reading.

    In the Bible, it is stated God is a jealous God. God is vengeful. God is war and God is death and eternal life. He has used fire and brimstone, pestilence, plague, flood and other means to show his displeasure. You don't get to cut out the parts of God as it suits your belief or your argument. That's what you're accusing the pastor of doing. EXACT same thing.
    You don't get to take things out of context and create a strawman. Or, I guess you DO get to do that, but I won't bite. What you wrote, in addition to being biblically untrue at worst, simply mis-understanding at best, is fodder for another thread because it has NOTHING to do with any point anyone has made up until this point.



    People go to church to worship God in the way they believe every bit as you do. You are expected to conduct yourself according to Church standards and how that church views worship. If you don't like it, don't go. Pick another church. In this country you have freedom of choice.
    None of that has anything to do with the facts of the case.

    Fact. Woman went to a new church. Fact. Pastor acted like a dick by calling her out in public - to the point he embarrased her. I'd wager the pastor straight-SINNED by what he did. Because the pastor was a dick to the woman it shows the observer (us, the congregation, God) the pastor doesn't know Love. Since God is love it's reasonable to conclude the pastor doesn't know God. Why? Because Christ or God WOULD NEVER IN A THOUSAND YEARS call a woman on the carpet like that.


    If I wanted a God with parameters I could go to church or ask you. You're doing the exact thing you are being hard-headed about claiming you are against.
    Are you wilfully or accidentally obtuse? Do you willfully ignore the basic points of arguments or do you do it by accident?

    The point is this - and you haven't made even a remotely-valid counter argument yet:

    Christian Churches must believe the Bible. The bible tells them - and they often re-affirm what they are told - God is Love.
    Christ said we will know believers by their 'fruits' - that means 'we will recognize other believers by the manifestations (the verbs) of their claimed-faith. Thus, if someone claims God, but doesn't love their fellow man, they cannot actually LOVE God. Not my rule. God's rule.

    Check it out - spaced and underscored with Greek.


    If someone says I love............God.....yet....hates/mistreats/shows less-than-affection or regard towads his.....brother, he.....is a.....liar
    ...ean........legō...agapaō..ho. theos....kai...miseō.............................. .......................................ho....autos ...adelphos..eimi....pseustēs

    For the one who does not love............his.....brother......cannot love God.
    gar ho......................mē agapaō ho..autos...adelphos.....ou...agapaō...theos


    Some say "A liar says he knows God but does not keep His commands." And what is THE GREATEST COMMAND, according NOT TO DARIN, but to CHRIST? Love GD and Love your fellow man as much as you love yourself.


    What are we learning? A pastor- especially a pastor- who humiliates someone, especially in public, displays the opposite of Love. The external, viewed symptom of the condition of the heart of the pastor tells the observer the pastor doesn't know Love. SINCE God IS LOVE...it's reasonable to assume the pastor doesn't know God. And that's a shame.
    “… the greatest detractor from high performance is fear: fear that you are not prepared, fear that you are in over your head, fear that you are not worthy, and ultimately, fear of failure. If you can eliminate that fear—not through arrogance or just wishing difficulties away, but through hard work and preparation—you will put yourself in an incredibly powerful position to take on the challenges you face" - Pete Carroll.

  19. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by darin View Post
    If someone says I love............God.....yet....hates/mistreats/shows less-than-affection or regard towads his.....brother, he.....is a.....liar
    ...ean........legō...agapaō..ho. theos....kai...miseō.............................. .......................................ho....autos ...adelphos..eimi....pseustēs

    For the one who does not love............his.....brother......cannot love God.
    gar ho......................mē agapaō ho..autos...adelphos.....ou...agapaō...theos
    I'm in big trouble then, because I do hate some people.

    I won't go into the why I'm not really worried about it though because it's not really related to the thread topic. I have delved into the topic with my super Christian son though, and many of his replies were generic canned responses that have been carefully crafted by "Christians" for people that don't "tow the line," per say. My son and I don't speak anymore.
    Last edited by High_Plains_Drifter; 03-21-2018 at 04:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by High_Plains_Drifter View Post
    I'm in big trouble then, because I do hate some people.

    I won't go into the why I'm not really worried about it though because it's not really related to the thread topic. I have delved into the topic with my super Christian son though, and many of his replies were generic canned responses that have been carefully crafted by "Christians" for people that don't "tow the line," per say. My son and I don't speak anymore.
    Christians who worry about 'following the rules' of christianity are misguided in my view. And most of the time, hate is REALLY hurt. We are hurt by people; we carry disdain for them. That's kinda different.

    Be Good to people. That's showing love. And not because God told you so, but because being good to people is the right thing to do. Be good to people NOT Because you fear punishment.

    Many bible-believing believers are afraid to be unafraid. We think if we aren't motivated to Love people by threat of Eternal Hell, we won't be motivated to love at all. And we like to control people; our churches use threats of eternal damnation to have people toe the line. And sometimes we lack Faith.
    “… the greatest detractor from high performance is fear: fear that you are not prepared, fear that you are in over your head, fear that you are not worthy, and ultimately, fear of failure. If you can eliminate that fear—not through arrogance or just wishing difficulties away, but through hard work and preparation—you will put yourself in an incredibly powerful position to take on the challenges you face" - Pete Carroll.

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