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    Default Top-Ten Reasons to Get Out of Iraq. Now!

    Agree or disagree and why?. Please do not attack any political party, politician, or person on the board, Please stay on topic, and relate only to the authors points, and whether you agree or disagree and why.

    Top-Ten Reasons to Get Out of Iraq. Now!


    May 18, 2007
    by Michael Boldin

    10. The U.S. military has absolutely no right, whether legal or moral, to be killing people who live in Iraq. It has no right to even be in Iraq. Why is this? Because neither the Iraqi government nor the Iraqi people ever attacked the United States. This fact makes the war in Iraq an optional one, not a necessary one.

    To reiterate what should be obvious, the fact that the U.S. was attacked in 2001 does not give this country the right to attack and kill people who had nothing to do with those crimes. It is morally acceptable to go after criminals, but it is a crime to kill their families, their friends, their neighbors, or anyone else not criminally complicit.

    9. Both political parties have pursued a foreign policy of aggression for decades, and where has that gotten us?

    Our military is based in over 120 countries around the world. The U.S. government has spent billions and billions of dollars of our tax money to prop up dictators and despotic regimes. It has armed people such as Osama bin Laden and the "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan, Saddam Hussein, and Manuel Noriega, only to use military force to oust them later on. This type of foreign policy has driven people all over the world to hate us. Don't we have enough enemies yet? Isn't it time to say enough is enough?

    8. Since this war began back in 1991, millions of people have been driven from their homes, injured, or killed. Considering this fact, I cannot be convinced that the Iraqi people are better off in any way.

    7. In a free country, aggressive war should never be used as a tool of foreign policy. Using force to impose what American politicians consider to be a proper government for Iraq violates every principle of freedom which this country is supposed to stand for. This is not freedom for Iraqis

    6. No one can convince me that kindness and charity are the primary motives in a war where hundreds of billions of dollars are forcibly redistributed from American citizens to the military-industrial complex; especially the weapons-manufacturers. Maybe something else motivates the war-makers. Could it be greed?

    5. Like virtually every war, this war is being funded through the coercive method of taxation. The wealth of the American people is being forcibly transferred to the government and their corporate partners; the merchants of death. Just considering this one point, the war in Iraq is just as immoral and illegal as stealing from one person to give to another.

    On top of this, taxation, deficit-spending, and the printing of money gives the government an almost unlimited source of funding. Thus, there is no incentive for the government to spend the money wisely, because it can always get more - from us. Conversely, the access to such vast wealth is actually an incentive to continue the war perpetually. The ability to grow in wealth and power is something that not many politicians have had the strength to resist throughout history. American politicians are no different.

    4. The Iraq War is the polar opposite of any proper concept of self-defense. The United States is the aggressor and Iraq is the defender; plain and simple. This fact brings up some very difficult moral and legal issues for everyone involved. Thomas Paine may have summed it up best:

    "Not all the treasures of the world, so far as I believe, could have induced me to support an offensive war, for I think it murder."

    3. We fought in Vietnam to stop the "domino effect" of communism, but when the communists took over, the world didn't come to an end. We "saved" Kuwait from an evil dictator, but it's still run by a family dynasty that has no interest in liberty for the people. We waged war on Afghanistan to capture Osama bin Laden. Oddly, rights violations are still rampant and Afghani opium production has soared since the invasion. And then, of course, we have all the "good" done in Iraq.

    This foreign policy of aggression and intervention, which we have seen grow in preeminence over the last century, just doesn't work. The politicians promise us peace; they promise us security; they promise us anything to get us to go along with their policies, but what happens? In virtually every situation, the intervention totally fails, or the "enemy" is replaced by another despotic regime. The U.S. government has caused chaos in Iraq, and the time for that to come to an end is now.

    2. You don't bring freedom to people by waging war on their cities and towns, and you don't protect innocent people by killing innocent people. It is a crime to aggressively take the life of another person. There is no murder of innocent people that can be justified by claiming that it was necessary for the "greater good."

    If you consider that to be the right way of handling the problems in Iraq, you more closely resemble Joseph Stalin's way of thinking than that of liberty-lovers like Patrick Henry and Thomas Paine.

    And the No. 1 reason to get the U.S. out of Iraq...now...

    1. The warfare state is, hands down, the greatest threat to liberty. In war, the government always claims the need for massive power, and it uses war as an excuse to expand its control over our lives in every way possible.

    War, the politicians claim, "changes everything." They tap our phones, read our emails, monitor our bank accounts, and give us "free speech zones." They consider torture acceptable and imprison people indefinitely. They take our property, waste our resources, and threaten to spend our economy into oblivion.

    Throughout history, even kings and queens have often failed to survive such disastrous governance.

    And, just in case that's not enough, here's one more "bonus" reason to get out Iraq now:

    The Constitution does not give the president the power to wage war without first getting a declaration of war from Congress. Although some try to claim that the 2002 Authorization to Use Military Force (AUMF) fulfilled this requirement, it did not. All it did was transfer a Constitutional power - the power to declare war - from congress to the president. This transfer of power is a violation of the Constitution in and of itself.

    Thus, the president violated the Constitution by waging war on Iraq without a declaration of war from congress. And, possibly even more important, everyone in congress who voted for the AUMF in 2002 violated the Constitution as well by illegally transferring their power to declare war to the president.

    This is how the U.S. government has handled every war since World War II. By allowing the government to wage undeclared wars, politicians from both political parties have violated their Constitutional oaths repeatedly.

    Whether you like it or not, the Constitution is not just a set of loose guidelines, it's the law. Now is the time to demand that our representatives in government abide by the law. We must stop allowing Presidents to drag us into wars, which they later claim we have to continue for years and years until the "job is done."

    NATIONAL DEFENSE, NOT OFFENSE

    If government should be playing any role at all in foreign affairs, it should be only to keep us out of wars. Their sole job is to ensure that this country will not be attacked so you and your family can live in peace.

    I'd actually like to see some national defense for once in this country; all we have now is a national offense. Such things as staging coups, backing dictators with billions in foreign aid, basing our military in over 120 nations, and attacking other countries does nothing to keep this country safe. In fact, it does just the opposite, and almost guarantees more war in the future.

    To make this country safer, we don't need to increase the power of the politicians, and we definitely don't need more national offense. We don't need more weapons, a larger military, or wars in more countries.

    We need the exact opposite of this. We need to focus on defending the country rather than aggressing against the rest of the world.

    The only reason to have a military force at all is to deter and discourage potential invaders; it's not to be used as a pre-emptive strike force. If the attackers come anyway, it's the military's job to repel them at our borders. Nothing more, nothing less. If they're unable to do that job, maybe we should consider something different.

    WHAT NOW?

    The path this country is on right now, the path of empire and militarism, will only guarantee us more violence, death, and loss of liberty.

    This state of affairs is intolerable.

    The right plan, in the short term, is the immediate withdrawal of all U.S. forces from Iraq. Now. Not when the violence "subsides." Not when Iraq has a stable government. Not when more Iraqi forces are trained. Not when the Democrats tell us the war is over, not when the Republicans tell us the war is over, and not when we have a new president.

    The time to leave Iraq is now. Not in the fall. Not next year. Not next month or next week. Today, not tomorrow - right now.

    Could the entire U.S. Military machine and its associated contractors leave Iraq this very moment? Obviously not. But, we could easily announce an immediate cessation of aggressive hostilities, and start mobilizing all of our resources to transport the troops out right away. It didn't take all that long to march into Iraq, and it won't take that long to march right on out.

    FOR THE FUTURE

    I hope that the painful lessons of the Iraq war will cause the American people to realize that the only solution to our foreign policy problems, including our nation's security, is not just a withdrawal from Iraq.

    These long-term measures should be taken:

    * Bring all U.S. troops home. All of them.
    * Stop inciting violence against us by backing coups and despotic regimes.
    * Stop telling other countries what type of government they should have, who their leaders should be, and what their policies should be.
    * End all foreign aid; both military and economic. Allow the American people, with their own free will, to decide which charities and movements they want to support with their money and lives.

    On top of these essential measures, we must clearly recognize that people in other countries don't hate us for "being free." They attack us when our government continually interferes in their lives.

    This long-term solution requires a return to our nation's founding principles of individual liberty. This is quite contrary to America's current policies of militarism, endless foreign aid, massive standing armies, assassinations, coups, deadly sanctions, and wars.

    As a nation, we cannot solve all the problems of the world. We cannot bring peace to the world. And, as the historical record shows, we cannot trust our politicians to do so either. Such has been the arrogance of many of the most murderous tyrants in world history, and such has been the path to their destruction.

    We may not be able to stop war and bloodshed in places like Darfur, and we may not be able to bring liberty to places like North Korea. But, by standing up for what we believe in, our voices can make a real difference in what our own government is allowed to do.

    When a government that rules in our name engages in torture, killing, and war, the number one question that will be asked of us someday is this: did you rise in opposition to it? Did you speak out against it? Or, did you approve of it by remaining silent?

    I, for one, rise in opposition, and will continue to speak out.
    Last edited by actsnoblemartin; 08-18-2007 at 03:28 AM.

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    Martin, please remember to cite a source when quoting others.

    Since this is posted in many places, here's just one:

    http://www.counterbias.com/888.html
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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    Michael boldin, a bonifide left wing nutjob is just rehashing old material. It's not worth answering as its all been answered before, multiple times.
    When I die I'm sure to go to heaven, cause I spent my time in hell.

    You get more with a kind word and a two by four, than you do with just a kind word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaffer View Post
    Michael boldin, a bonifide left wing nutjob is just rehashing old material. It's not worth answering as its all been answered before, multiple times.
    But maybe it hasn't been explained to Martin yet? He is quite young and new to this board?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDoe View Post
    But maybe it hasn't been explained to Martin yet? He is quite young and new to this board?
    Every few months people like boldin put out this crap to rejuvenate the hate mongers. A reaffirmation of Bush hatred is all it is. The surge is working so they have to stir things up again in case any of the nut jobs begin to waver. He's a liberal pundit who's job is to produce propaganda. If Martin wants to ask a question himself I would be more than happy to respond. Posting an article is not asking a question. If he can take the time to dig up the article he can take the time to read what has been said in earlier posts on here.
    When I die I'm sure to go to heaven, cause I spent my time in hell.

    You get more with a kind word and a two by four, than you do with just a kind word.

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    Default ok. I do have a question.

    Can iraq still be won, and how much longer will it take?

    I know im a nieve idiot, but im waivering. Im in the middle on this right now. Half of me feels like fuck the iraqis, were given them enough time, and half of me says, we can still win... War takes time, and we are being impatient shmucks.

    I feel confused, and scared because, i dont wanna disapoint my friends, and inevitable, i do, because no matter what i think... my friends on the left get pissed, or my friends on the right, and trying to find the truth on any issue is so hard because of all the spin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by actsnoblemartin View Post
    Half of me feels like fuck the iraqis,
    Fuck the Iraqis? what about the power vacum that will be created with a weak Iraq and the inevitable filling of that power by Iran? Is that the best for future world politics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MtnBiker View Post
    Fuck the Iraqis? what about the power vacum that will be created with a weak Iraq and the inevitable filling of that power by Iran? Is that the best for future world politics?
    I'm afraid there are very few sophisticated enough to understand what you are even talking about much less come up with an answer that doesn't fall under the heading " Another Bush Bash ".

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    Sure Iran might gain more regional power but then again it might cause the entire region to distablize with the saudies & co battling the Iranian & co for power for there sects in Iraq. They focus on killing each other and it takes the spotlight of us. Occuping the ME can not go on forever, they will boot us out eventually. We can't stay as long as they can wait.

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    10. The U.S. military has absolutely no right, whether legal or moral, to be killing people who live in Iraq. It has no right to even be in Iraq. Why is this? Because neither the Iraqi government nor the Iraqi people ever attacked the United States. This fact makes the war in Iraq an optional one, not a necessary one.
    First of all, it wasn't our military that just up and decided to go attack Iraq. It was our elected leaders. The President, and the Congress. Thus, they are actually morally and legally obligated to do as the Commander-in-Chief orders. Secondly, they are not just there to "be killing people who live in Iraq." They were there to remove Saddam Hussien from power and to give the Iraqi people the chance for a democracy.



    9. Both political parties have pursued a foreign policy of aggression for decades, and where has that gotten us?

    Our military is based in over 120 countries around the world. The U.S. government has spent billions and billions of dollars of our tax money to prop up dictators and despotic regimes. It has armed people such as Osama bin Laden and the "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan, Saddam Hussein, and Manuel Noriega, only to use military force to oust them later on. This type of foreign policy has driven people all over the world to hate us. Don't we have enough enemies yet? Isn't it time to say enough is enough?
    Yea, lets just stick our head in the sand and our asses in the air and hope for the best. Dipshit.


    8. Since this war began back in 1991, millions of people have been driven from their homes, injured, or killed. Considering this fact, I cannot be convinced that the Iraqi people are better off in any way.
    I could really care less what you can be convinced or not. I'm sure if the Iraqi people prefer living under a totalitarian dictator, they'll find one soon enough. Maybe we could just send them Hitlery?


    7. In a free country, aggressive war should never be used as a tool of foreign policy. Using force to impose what American politicians consider to be a proper government for Iraq violates every principle of freedom which this country is supposed to stand for. This is not freedom for Iraqis
    In other words, we should never lift a finger to help people living in a totalitarian society. Gotcha.

    6. No one can convince me that kindness and charity are the primary motives in a war where hundreds of billions of dollars are forcibly redistributed from American citizens to the military-industrial complex; especially the weapons-manufacturers. Maybe something else motivates the war-makers. Could it be greed?
    Who the hell every said we went to war because of kindness and charity?

    5. Like virtually every war, this war is being funded through the coercive method of taxation. The wealth of the American people is being forcibly transferred to the government and their corporate partners; the merchants of death. Just considering this one point, the war in Iraq is just as immoral and illegal as stealing from one person to give to another.
    You can always move out of the country.


    4. The Iraq War is the polar opposite of any proper concept of self-defense. The United States is the aggressor and Iraq is the defender; plain and simple. This fact brings up some very difficult moral and legal issues for everyone involved. Thomas Paine may have summed it up best:

    "Not all the treasures of the world, so far as I believe, could have induced me to support an offensive war, for I think it murder."
    Well, feel free to go join the "minute men" of Al Queda in Iraq. We'll see how long you last.


    3. We fought in Vietnam to stop the "domino effect" of communism, but when the communists took over, the world didn't come to an end. We "saved" Kuwait from an evil dictator, but it's still run by a family dynasty that has no interest in liberty for the people. We waged war on Afghanistan to capture Osama bin Laden. Oddly, rights violations are still rampant and Afghani opium production has soared since the invasion. And then, of course, we have all the "good" done in Iraq.
    No the world didn't come to an end but millions of people died as a result.
    Is this man actually saying we should had not of kicked Saddam's army out of Kuwait?




    2. You don't bring freedom to people by waging war on their cities and towns, and you don't protect innocent people by killing innocent people. It is a crime to aggressively take the life of another person. There is no murder of innocent people that can be justified by claiming that it was necessary for the "greater good."

    If you consider that to be the right way of handling the problems in Iraq, you more closely resemble Joseph Stalin's way of thinking than that of liberty-lovers like Patrick Henry and Thomas Paine.
    Sounds exactly like points #8, 7, and 4. I guess this guy really couldn't come up with 10 reasons so he just keeps repeating the same ones over and over.
    But, we'll go over it again.
    Actually, we do get freedom by waging war on "cities and towns". Its how we won the war against Japan and Germany in WWII. We bombed entire cities killing hundreds of thousands of people, many of which were no doubt 'innocent.' And in the long term it was for the better because it ended the war and we made those countries into free democracies.


    And the No. 1 reason to get the U.S. out of Iraq...now...

    1. The warfare state is, hands down, the greatest threat to liberty. In war, the government always claims the need for massive power, and it uses war as an excuse to expand its control over our lives in every way possible.

    War, the politicians claim, "changes everything." They tap our phones, read our emails, monitor our bank accounts, and give us "free speech zones." They consider torture acceptable and imprison people indefinitely. They take our property, waste our resources, and threaten to spend our economy into oblivion.
    Wow, all of our phones are tapped!!! They're reading our emails!!! "Free speech zones"!!!
    This moron needs to seek theropy.

    And, just in case that's not enough, here's one more "bonus" reason to get out Iraq now:

    The Constitution does not give the president the power to wage war without first getting a declaration of war from Congress. Although some try to claim that the 2002 Authorization to Use Military Force (AUMF) fulfilled this requirement, it did not. All it did was transfer a Constitutional power - the power to declare war - from congress to the president. This transfer of power is a violation of the Constitution in and of itself.

    Thus, the president violated the Constitution by waging war on Iraq without a declaration of war from congress. And, possibly even more important, everyone in congress who voted for the AUMF in 2002 violated the Constitution as well by illegally transferring their power to declare war to the president.
    The Congress did vote on this war. And there hasn't been a "Declaration of War" since WWII. Hell, Congress didn't even approve of the Korean War. So if this President violated the Constitution, then so did Presidents Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Reagan, Bush Sr, Clinton, and even Presidents Jefferson and Madison for the Barbary Wars and President John Adams for the war with France in 1798-1800. I guess all those lawyers over the last two centuries didn't have a clue what was the powers of the President were as spelled out by the Constitution. Glad Mr. Boldin is here to straighten us all out!
    PRAIRIE FIRE by William Ayers: Obama's guide to destory America
    "Maybe I missed that part of the Constitution"--Joe Steel
    You can't spell Liberals without Lies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MtnBiker View Post
    Fuck the Iraqis? what about the power vacum that will be created with a weak Iraq and the inevitable filling of that power by Iran? Is that the best for future world politics?
    Ironic isn't it? An anti-Iran dictator was removed and replaced with a pro-Iran regime.
    "Unbloodybreakable" DCI Gene Hunt, 2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by theHawk View Post
    First of all, it wasn't our military that just up and decided to go attack Iraq. It was our elected leaders. The President, and the Congress. Thus, they are actually morally and legally obligated to do as the Commander-in-Chief orders. Secondly, they are not just there to "be killing people who live in Iraq." They were there to remove Saddam Hussien from power and to give the Iraqi people the chance for a democracy.
    He didnt say it was military that made the decision so that seems a strawman you are using. Our elected leaders did not do it the proper way and no they didnt do it properly in Korea, Vietnam, etc. I guess since we have let them get away with it before means we should allow them to continue doing it and continue getting away with it. There was good reason for requiring congress to give declaration of war, there isnt a good reason to bypass that.

    Yea, lets just stick our head in the sand and our asses in the air and hope for the best. Dipshit.
    You think its either aggressive predatory policy vs asses in the air? Thats ridiculous. You neglect to realize all the other options available and even seem to suggest they dont exist.

    I could really care less what you can be convinced or not. I'm sure if the Iraqi people prefer living under a totalitarian dictator, they'll find one soon enough. Maybe we could just send them Hitlery?
    Its a quantifiable fact that Iraqis are worse off with US involvement. We have no right to inflict such suffering onto people.

    In other words, we should never lift a finger to help people living in a totalitarian society. Gotcha.
    Its seems disingenous to pretend you care about Iraqi people or anyone living under a totalitarian dictator since just in the statement above you arent even willing to deal with the fact that we have only ADDED to their suffering. Invading and bombing people, creating puppet regimes, installing or SUPPORTING totalitarian dicators are all things that are not helpful. We have supported numerous dictators, INCLUDING Saddam, the extremes in our reactions are not helpful, they are harmful.

    Who the hell every said we went to war because of kindness and charity?
    Well the first excuse was WMD, that didnt hold water though. Then we were quick to switch it to "liberation" of the Iraqi people and pretend our reasons are altruistic. Our goals are solely based on geo-political goals to suit ourselves and dont bother to take into account what this means for those we harm.

    You can always move out of the country.
    People also have a right to stay and try to change things as well.


    Well, feel free to go join the "minute men" of Al Queda in Iraq. We'll see how long you last.
    The comment dosent really make sense. It seems that you inserted macho swaggering taunts in place of dealing with the difficult legal and moral questions our own wars of aggression raise.

    No the world didn't come to an end but millions of people died as a result.
    Is this man actually saying we should had not of kicked Saddam's army out of Kuwait?
    Vietnam is a good illustration of the "fear mongering" has little to do with reality in the end. We have a right to stop aggressive wars in their tracks, which is why it is justified to stop Iraq from invading Kuwait..... which of course reminds us that aggressive wars are wrong and we are knowingly engaging in this action we oursleves deems to be wrong.

    We are obvious hypocrites though cause we backed Saddams other aggressive invasion against Iran. We obviously dont have legal or moral standards we stick to.


    Sounds exactly like points #8, 7, and 4. I guess this guy really couldn't come up with 10 reasons so he just keeps repeating the same ones over and over.
    But, we'll go over it again.
    Actually, we do get freedom by waging war on "cities and towns". Its how we won the war against Japan and Germany in WWII. We bombed entire cities killing hundreds of thousands of people, many of which were no doubt 'innocent.' And in the long term it was for the better because it ended the war and we made those countries into free democracies.
    We won the war in ww2 (along with other nations) but we didnt bring "freedom and democracy". Germany had been a democracy and they allowed it to be erroded and simply went back to an earlier state. Japan pushed themselves into a corner with their own behavior (aggressive wars again) and found they needed radical change if they were to survive as a nation.


    Wow, all of our phones are tapped!!! They're reading our emails!!! "Free speech zones"!!!
    This moron needs to seek theropy.
    Its sad to see that rights of privacy are so easily discarded. You dont seem all that opposed to totalitarian dicator concepts, you seem ready to embrace them even. Pretty contradictory to your stated position really.


    The Congress did vote on this war. And there hasn't been a "Declaration of War" since WWII. Hell, Congress didn't even approve of the Korean War. So if this President violated the Constitution, then so did Presidents Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Reagan, Bush Sr, Clinton, and even Presidents Jefferson and Madison for the Barbary Wars and President John Adams for the war with France in 1798-1800. I guess all those lawyers over the last two centuries didn't have a clue what was the powers of the President were as spelled out by the Constitution. Glad Mr. Boldin is here to straighten us all out!

    The congress needed to DECLARE war and we need to stop trying to slide things through on technicalities, create new terms to avoid current laws etc. Its a ridiculous and dangerous game to play. You really do seem very quick to toss out the safeguards in our system and not at all bothered as they are bypassed. Its an odd stance to take while also claiming to care about democratic principles.

    We have been letting our govt get away with far too much and the levels of corruption are truly extreme.

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    Wow, comrade ruby really, really, really hates America.
    When I die I'm sure to go to heaven, cause I spent my time in hell.

    You get more with a kind word and a two by four, than you do with just a kind word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by actsnoblemartin View Post
    Can iraq still be won, and how much longer will it take?

    I know im a nieve idiot, but im waivering. Im in the middle on this right now. Half of me feels like fuck the iraqis, were given them enough time, and half of me says, we can still win... War takes time, and we are being impatient shmucks.

    I feel confused, and scared because, i dont wanna disapoint my friends, and inevitable, i do, because no matter what i think... my friends on the left get pissed, or my friends on the right, and trying to find the truth on any issue is so hard because of all the spin.
    In the words of the late great Ricky Nelson "You Can't Please Everyone, So You GOtta PLease Yourself"

    If you attack the Clintons publically make sure all your friends know your not planning on commiting suicide ~ McCain 2008
    Happiness is Obama's picture on the back of a milk carton.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
    He didnt say it was military that made the decision so that seems a strawman you are using. Our elected leaders did not do it the proper way and no they didnt do it properly in Korea, Vietnam, etc. I guess since we have let them get away with it before means we should allow them to continue doing it and continue getting away with it. There was good reason for requiring congress to give declaration of war, there isnt a good reason to bypass that.



    You think its either aggressive predatory policy vs asses in the air? Thats ridiculous. You neglect to realize all the other options available and even seem to suggest they dont exist.



    Its a quantifiable fact that Iraqis are worse off with US involvement. We have no right to inflict such suffering onto people.



    Its seems disingenous to pretend you care about Iraqi people or anyone living under a totalitarian dictator since just in the statement above you arent even willing to deal with the fact that we have only ADDED to their suffering. Invading and bombing people, creating puppet regimes, installing or SUPPORTING totalitarian dicators are all things that are not helpful. We have supported numerous dictators, INCLUDING Saddam, the extremes in our reactions are not helpful, they are harmful.



    Well the first excuse was WMD, that didnt hold water though. Then we were quick to switch it to "liberation" of the Iraqi people and pretend our reasons are altruistic. Our goals are solely based on geo-political goals to suit ourselves and dont bother to take into account what this means for those we harm.



    People also have a right to stay and try to change things as well.




    The comment dosent really make sense. It seems that you inserted macho swaggering taunts in place of dealing with the difficult legal and moral questions our own wars of aggression raise.



    Vietnam is a good illustration of the "fear mongering" has little to do with reality in the end. We have a right to stop aggressive wars in their tracks, which is why it is justified to stop Iraq from invading Kuwait..... which of course reminds us that aggressive wars are wrong and we are knowingly engaging in this action we oursleves deems to be wrong.

    We are obvious hypocrites though cause we backed Saddams other aggressive invasion against Iran. We obviously dont have legal or moral standards we stick to.




    We won the war in ww2 (along with other nations) but we didnt bring "freedom and democracy". Germany had been a democracy and they allowed it to be erroded and simply went back to an earlier state. Japan pushed themselves into a corner with their own behavior (aggressive wars again) and found they needed radical change if they were to survive as a nation.




    Its sad to see that rights of privacy are so easily discarded. You dont seem all that opposed to totalitarian dicator concepts, you seem ready to embrace them even. Pretty contradictory to your stated position really.





    The congress needed to DECLARE war and we need to stop trying to slide things through on technicalities, create new terms to avoid current laws etc. Its a ridiculous and dangerous game to play. You really do seem very quick to toss out the safeguards in our system and not at all bothered as they are bypassed. Its an odd stance to take while also claiming to care about democratic principles.

    We have been letting our govt get away with far too much and the levels of corruption are truly extreme.
    What the fuck, we are creating Iraqui's pain and discomfort? Well actually you are right, we did cause pain and suffering to the dictator and criminals running that country that were torturing, raping and killing innocent people just because they lost in an Olympic event.

    If you attack the Clintons publically make sure all your friends know your not planning on commiting suicide ~ McCain 2008
    Happiness is Obama's picture on the back of a milk carton.

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