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Thread: Dyna vs fatboy.

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    It's basic to me because I understand it and know how to handle it. It was how I used to pay the bills. Most of it is repetitive.

    Here's a tip on remembering your wires --- they sell a book of numbers at Home Depot and Lowes, probably most hardware stores and/or electrical supply houses. It used to piss me off that something as simple as an adhesive number wrapped around each end of the wire you're pulling was too much effort for some people. Takes a little longer up front to mark your wires, but it pays off in the end when you don't have to ring out each and every wire in box to find out where it goes. THAT takes a LOT of time.

    I'm WELL aware of the difference between volts and amps. Learned what both felt like first week in the trade The return is carrying the load of every fixture attached to it and the electricity is "dirty". Knocked ne off an 8 footer. I've held volts between my fingers (I was not grounded) and hardly felt it. That is actually more dangerous because 120 can kill you without you realizing it by disrupting your heart. 277v will blow you off.

    There's a rule for everything. Then there's the how to do it really rule to make it work. You just pick all that crap up over time. Not to mention the two courses I took in it that were about 10 books each and I would go out the $100 for my own Code book I kept in my truck. All of that is right behind me now..
    277 is what they call the "BASTARD VOLTAGE." It's the one hot leg out of 3 phase that isn't the same as the other two. You have to learn this shit like you and I or it will kill you.

    Yeah my buddy and I just started putting a little tag on each circuit and twisting it in the box so I could keep track of it. Everything else I had no problem with. Thing is, if I was doing it myself, I'd know, but he didn't relate to me his grand plan and I'd always have to ask... ok, what are pulling this leg for? On and on, he wouldn't tell me unless I asked. I think he just assumed I was keeping track like he was. Problem was he's the master electrician, not me... But, those times were actually few and far between. It was only a couple of our huge house rewire jobs I'd lose track. It was still fun... I especially liked when we'd run EMT... that's an art, I like that.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by High_Plains_Drifter View Post
    277 is what they call the "BASTARD VOLTAGE." It's the one hot leg out of 3 phase that isn't the same as the other two. You have to learn this shit like you and I or it will kill you.

    Yeah my buddy and I just started putting a little tag on each circuit and twisting it in the box so I could keep track of it. Everything else I had no problem with. Thing is, if I was doing it myself, I'd know, but he didn't relate to me his grand plan and I'd always have to ask... ok, what are pulling this leg for? On and on, he wouldn't tell me unless I asked. I think he just assumed I was keeping track like he was. Problem was he's the master electrician, not me... But, those times were actually few and far between. It was only a couple of our huge house rewire jobs I'd lose track. It was still fun... I especially liked when we'd run EMT... that's an art, I like that.
    No. You are talking about a Delta transformer that has a high leg. I'd actually have to look it up to explain how the voltage works because I only worked on one or two. IIRC, 2 legs would be 120 and the high leg is 208

    277/480v is 3 phase wye transformer. You have 3 277 volt legs that combined make 480v. 277v is used almost exclusively for florescent lighting. It's a lot less expensive and you can hook up like 27 2x4 lay-ins per circuit. If you have 120v, you can get like 11 lights and they use more electricity.
    Last edited by Gunny; 05-26-2018 at 11:06 PM.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    No. You are talking about a Delta transformer that has a high leg. I'd actually have to look it up to explain how the voltage works because I only worked on one or two. IIRC, 2 legs would be 120 and the high leg is 208

    277/480v is 3 phase wye transformer. You have 3 277 volt legs that combined make 480v. 277v is used almost exclusively for florescent lighting. It's a lot less expensive and you can hook up like 27 2x4 lay-ins per circuit. If you have 120v, you can get like 11 lights and they use more electricity.
    Never heard of 3 legs of 277. You're talking above my knowledge. But 3 times 277 is 830 volts. I always thought you got 277 by taking one regular leg and the hot leg out of 480, 3 phase. You're right it's almost exclusively used for lighting though because I've done it.

    You can get almost whatever voltage you want off a transformer tap.
    Last edited by High_Plains_Drifter; 05-26-2018 at 11:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by High_Plains_Drifter View Post
    Never heard of 3 legs of 277. You're talking above my knowledge. But 3 times 277 is 830 volts. I always thought you got 277 by taking one regular leg and the hot leg out of 480, 3 phase. You're right it's almost exclusively used for lighting though because I've done it.

    You can get almost whatever voltage you want off a transformer tap.
    Now you sound like me I'm well aware of what 3 x 277 is. It's 480v. The transformer windings say so 3 x 120 isn't 208 either. BUT ... 2 x 120 without a neutral IS is 240v. Any time you have one or two hots, with or without a neutral, it's single phase. I never got that one either. If you 2 hots it should be 2 phase. No such animal. Your house if wired like a house is 120/240v single phase. Your dryer is 240v. Everything else is 120. I think they might make a 240v stove/oven. If so, those are the only one or two 240v appliances you have.

    I used 120/208 because that is the voltage I am familiar with. That doesn't sound right though. You need 3 phase wye to get to 277. What voltage transformer would you pull it from? You would have to have 2 legs at 240 to get a 480 high leg and what would you use a 480 high leg for? You can power another transformer with that much voltage and it doesn't make sense when you can run 480 straight to the transformer from the service.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    Now you sound like me I'm well aware of what 3 x 277 is. It's 480v. The transformer windings say so 3 x 120 isn't 208 either. BUT ... 2 x 120 without a neutral IS is 240v. Any time you have one or two hots, with or without a neutral, it's single phase. I never got that one either. If you 2 hots it should be 2 phase. No such animal. Your house if wired like a house is 120/240v single phase. Your dryer is 240v. Everything else is 120. I think they might make a 240v stove/oven. If so, those are the only one or two 240v appliances you have.

    I used 120/208 because that is the voltage I am familiar with. That doesn't sound right though. You need 3 phase wye to get to 277. What voltage transformer would you pull it from? You would have to have 2 legs at 240 to get a 480 high leg and what would you use a 480 high leg for? You can power another transformer with that much voltage and it doesn't make sense when you can run 480 straight to the transformer from the service.
    OK... we're talking two different animals here. Have you ever looked at an oscilloscope of A/C current? You know that A/C changes direction at 60 cycles per second, et al, house hold A/C is 60 Hz. 3 phase current is 3 legs all at 180 degrees out of phase from each other, which makes the circle of things, 360 degrees. Houses are rarely wired with 3 phase. You find that in factories because 3 phase runs electric motors far more efficiently than single phase. The only way you can get 277 is if there's a 480, 3 phase source... agreed? If you've ever taken a VOM and read the voltage on all 3 legs of 480 3 phase, you'll find one of them is hotter than the rest, why I don't know, but you combine one regular leg and that "bastard leg" in 480 to get 277.
    Last edited by High_Plains_Drifter; 05-27-2018 at 12:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Diamond View Post
    I realize it's gonna be "whatever your preference" but can someone tell me the advantages and differences of each ?
    Soft tail is my preference.
    If the freedom of speech is taken away
    then dumb and silent we may be led,
    like sheep to the slaughter.


    George Washington (1732-1799) First President of the USA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SassyLady View Post
    Soft tail is my preference.
    ...........

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  11. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by High_Plains_Drifter View Post
    OK... we're talking two different animals here. Have you ever looked at an oscilloscope of A/C current? You know that A/C changes direction at 60 cycles per second, et al, house hold A/C is 60 Hz. 3 phase current is 3 legs all at 180 degrees out of phase from each other, which makes the circle of things, 360 degrees. Houses are rarely wired with 3 phase. You find that in factories because 3 phase runs electric motors far more efficiently than single phase. The only way you can get 277 is if there's a 480, 3 phase source... agreed? If you've ever taken a VOM and read the voltage on all 3 legs of 480 3 phase, you'll find one of them is hotter than the rest, why I don't know, but you combine one regular leg and that "bastard leg" in 480 to get 277.
    We ARE talking two different animals. First rule in the electrical trade is you're never going to know everything and all that theory crap is nice, but at my level secondary to application and use. I'm digging through cobwebs because what I know of electrical theory I learned from a god journeyman who care to teach, and on my own. You don't need it in the field.

    The 3 phase 277/480 system you are describing is a delta configuration high leg. In a wye configuration, 3 phase, 277/480 all legs are 277. 480 i2 the line voltage to the transformer that steps the 480 down to 3 277v legs for application. There is ZERO practical application reason to run 480 volts into a transformer to get 480 v in any application I have ever worked. NOW, that is not saying it doesn't happen because I've seen some weird shit and just when you think you've seen it all, someone throws you a curve.

    The only time I worked on Delta configured systems was a couple of times just replacing things is REALLY OLD malls. I never did industrial. I never did lineman work. Screw that. You're allowed zero mistakes or you're dead. I did some service on commercial and houses but mostly I did ground up commercial construction, commercial remodels. All of it was 3 phase wye 277/480 or 120/208. Occasionally you'd get some oddball 240 equipment but that's easy to pull off a 120/208.

    You tell me what you need, I figure out the load based on what you want to power which determines the size of your panel and the voltage you're bringing in. Then you have to size your feeders based on the load and the panel. Like I said, 277 is for lighting. If you have 277 lighting, you will have 2 panels. One for lighting, 277/480 and one for 120/208. You size your wiring according to load and distance and the specs at the outlet/connection.

    I can sleepwalk through that process from the line to the last outlet. If i go outside what I am familiar with, the basics still apply, but I have to research the specific application like anyone else stretching the boundaries of the norm. When I was working, I usually just found the person in the company that familiar with whatever it was and had them show me how. As I said before, I have a NEC and plenty of instructional material. In each case, the application determines the service and teh service is pretty much predetermined in that the material available to you is preset to the different applications.

    People sitting around dreaming up crap need electrical theory. I install it and make it work. Nothing worse than an electrical engineer drawing up a set of plans because they think the equipment and material can do all kinds of shit in theory that it can't in real life. My job's to figure out how to make his/her little imagination work wher ethe rubber meets the road. And you have to get quite creative at times

    And for everything I DO know about electrical? There's more I DON'T know, and once it hits that transformer that turns it into electronics? Might as well hand me a bowl of spaghetti or a Rubik's cube. When I have applied myself (which ain't lately) I'm a proficient user. But I can't take the things apart and tell you what each little piece of crap is like Jimbob or NT. the inside of a PC looks like my the box my granddaughter keeps her Lego's in to me. And lots of little bitty wires that wouldn't fire a light bulb
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    Quote Originally Posted by High_Plains_Drifter View Post
    ...........
    Only because it is the only one I've ever be on.






    Hint, hint.
    Last edited by SassyLady; 05-28-2018 at 11:00 PM.
    If the freedom of speech is taken away
    then dumb and silent we may be led,
    like sheep to the slaughter.


    George Washington (1732-1799) First President of the USA.

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