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  1. #46
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    Default Anti-Brexit scaremongering ....

    More good news on Brexit as Dominic Raab (Brexit Secretary of State, who took over from David Davis last summer) made these comments at a technology conference

    “We want a bespoke arrangement on goods which recognises the particular geographic economic entity that is the United Kingdom. We are - and I hadn’t quite understood the full extent of this but if you look at the U.K. and you look at how we trade goods - we are particularly reliant on the Dover to Calais crossing.“

    So a round of applause is clearly in order for the Brexit secretary who’s just realised Dover-Calais is an important trade route. Bravo!
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

  2. #47
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    Poor Raab, only a few days after learning about how important the Dover-Calais he’s decided to resign as Brexit secretary. I wonder if he’d of taken the position at all if he’d of known from the start?

    Though of course what actually got him was the Northern Ireland border issue, which has yet more victims to claim.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    What we will do most likely is walk away without a deal, and be worse off, because that’s what the direct democratic process demands.

    In the meantime, I hear that the Conservatives are finally starting to take seriously the problem they’ve created for themselves by giving a smidge of power to the DUP. Who’d of thunk ^,^;
    I think that very recent events have proven you completely wrong, eh, Noir ?

    A deal has been struck !!

    I also think that Mrs May's deal, if anything, REMOVES power from the DUP .. as it defies what they'd ideally seek.

    Of course, they can choose to not prop up the Conservatives in Commons voting .. but then, this is an 'old' power that they've had for quite some time.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Poor Raab, only a few days after learning about how important the Dover-Calais he’s decided to resign as Brexit secretary. I wonder if he’d of taken the position at all if he’d of known from the start?

    Though of course what actually got him was the Northern Ireland border issue, which has yet more victims to claim.
    ... umm, yes .. that was embarrassing, from Raab.

    Still, he's redeemed himself, in my eyes. He's taken a principled stand against what he sees to be a poor deal, and resigned; as did Davis, before him.

    My thinking ... IF my understanding is correct, Mrs May has walked away with a deal that to some extent has us hamstrung. Apparently, we'll be stuck in a form of customs union which will still prevent us from forming trade agreements outside of the EU 'orbit'. Also ... IF this is correct ... exactly when we can leave this arrangement will not be a decision the UK can unilaterally arrive at.

    I don't find any of that acceptable. If Mrs May has agreed to all of this, she's been bullied into it by the EU's insufferable intransigence. She said it herself: the choices were 'this deal', 'no deal', or (shockingly) 'No Brexit at all !'. I find it particularly offensive that Mrs May can be bullied into all this, and yet she, in turn, takes on a bullying tone in trying to railroad everyone here into accepting her deal.

    My belief: Mrs May should go through a leadership challenge, be deposed, and her replacement goes to the EU and demands a better deal. If we don't get one, WE WALK, minus a deal ... and the EU gets no more funding from us of any description.

    Brexit was supposed to be about freeing us from EU strictures. We should be free to trade with whoever the hell we want to !! How DARE the EU still - and with us no longer (by the time this deal is fully in force) actually being members of it !! - STILL DICTATE WHO WE MAY OR MAY NOT TRADE WITH !!!

    Our clinging to any version of a customs union makes us look pathetic, as if we're telling the world: the UK has insufficient confidence in itself to find our own way in the world. Well ... if this is Theresa May's mindset, the sooner she's kicked out, the better.
    Last edited by Drummond; 11-15-2018 at 10:18 AM.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    I think that very recent events have proven you completely wrong, eh, Noir ?

    A deal has been struck !!

    I also think that Mrs May's deal, if anything, REMOVES power from the DUP .. as it defies what they'd ideally seek.

    Of course, they can choose to not prop up the Conservatives in Commons voting .. but then, this is an 'old' power that they've had for quite some time.
    I tell you for a fact the DUP will eat glass rather than agree to to what May has proposed, and no the ‘old’ power you’re referring to was given a few months over a year ago, personally I don’t consider that “Old”
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    ... umm, yes .. that was embarrassing, from Raab.

    Still, he's redeemed himself, in my eyes. He's taken a principled stand against what he sees to be a poor deal, and resigned; as did Davis, before him.
    So you can forgive him his complete non-understanding of one of the most basic concepts in Brexit because he doesn’t agree with policy that he help negotiate??

    My belief: Mrs May should go through a leadership challenge, be deposed, and her replacement goes to the EU and demands a better deal. If we don't get one, WE WALK, minus a deal ... and the EU gets no more funding from us of any description.

    Brexit was supposed to be about freeing us from EU strictures. We should be free to trade with whoever the hell we want to !! How DARE the EU still - and with us no longer (by the time this deal is fully in force) actually being members of it !! - STILL DICTATE WHO WE MAY OR MAY NOT TRADE WITH !!!
    Yes we will almost certainly have a leadership challenge, and the new leader and their cabinet will have how long to negotiate a new deal? And how will they propose to settle the DUP? and how has any of this convinced Europe that we need to come out of this deal any better than they are?

    Folly, waste, and inevitable failure.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    I tell you for a fact the DUP will eat glass rather than agree to to what May has proposed, and no the ‘old’ power you’re referring to was given a few months over a year ago, personally I don’t consider that “Old”
    Whether it's 'old' or not is relative. 'It's been around for a while' ... perhaps we can agree on that much ?

    I don't blame the DUP one bit. It's a lousy deal, and deserves to fail. If, as seems true, the EU won't agree to anything better (because they're insufferably arrogant, dictatorial control freaks), we should then walk away minus a deal.

    In the short term, it'd create a measure of hardship (but won't be as bad as most people insist it will). In the longer term, our new-found status as a worldwide free trader will usher us into a new, far more lucrative, 'golden age'.

    Unless I'm much mistaken, the EU doesn't have many more years of stability left to it. On the principle that 'a chain is only as strong as its weakest link', the poorer economies within it will one day put the Euro under intolerable strain. I think it'll implode; and the EU's authority, its cohesiveness, will unravel as a result.

    We'll be the cork that floats in the ocean, riding out the storm, while others sink under the burden of ruined economies.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    So you can forgive him his complete non-understanding of one of the most basic concepts in Brexit because he doesn’t agree with policy that he help negotiate??
    For taking a principled stand, when it mattered ... against a backdrop of the control freaks within the EU who've decisively shaped this whole scenario ? Absolutely. YES.

    Yes we will almost certainly have a leadership challenge, and the new leader and their cabinet will have how long to negotiate a new deal? And how will they propose to settle the DUP? and how has any of this convinced Europe that we need to come out of this deal any better than they are?
    Yes, isn't that part of the point ? Labour have rambled on for some time, saying that if any deal can't be agreed at our end, we should go back and get another one. They've touted themselves as being fit and able to do so !!

    All fantasist stuff, of course ... helping to prove their unfitness for High Office (unless, of course, the REAL point was to encourage conditions which helped make Brexit itself unrealisable, therefore, something to be ditched, and to hell with the electorate .. ??).

    It wouldn't take long for Mrs May's replacement to demand a better deal. How long the EU take to start conceding to us, is THEIR problem. They did, after all, create the basis for such a mess.

    And if there is insufficient time, then, we walk ... heads held high, making sure the world understands how abominably we've been treated.

    Folly, waste, and inevitable failure.
    ... of the EU's making ! They've had more than TWO YEARS to treat us better than this !
    Last edited by Drummond; 11-15-2018 at 10:39 AM.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    For taking a principled stand, when it mattered ... against a backdrop of the control freaks within the EU who've decisively shaped this whole scenario ? Absolutely. YES.

    Yes, isn't that part of the point ? Labour have rambled on for some time, saying that if any deal can't be agreed at our end, we should go back and get another one. They've touted themselves as being fit and able to do so !!

    All fantasist stuff, of course ... helping to prove their unfitness for High Office (unless, of course, the REAL point was to encourage conditions which helped make Brexit itself unrealisable, therefore, something to be ditched, and to hell with the electorate .. ??).

    It wouldn't take long for Mrs May's replacement to demand a better deal. How long the EU take to start conceding to us, is THEIR problem. They did, after all, create the basis for such a mess.

    And if there is insufficient time, then, we walk ... heads held high, making sure the world understands how abominably we've been treated.

    ... of the EU's making ! They've had more than TWO YEARS to treat us better than this !
    What bad sportsmanship by the EU for acting on the interests of their 27 countries, rather than ours, eh?

    ...and by your account the EU has spent the last 2 years absolutely battering our various secretaries, ministers, and negotiators that have had to deal with them that has ended up leaving us with such a bad deal, eh?
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    What bad sportsmanship by the EU for acting on the interests of their 27 countries, rather than ours, eh?

    ...and by your account the EU has spent the last 2 years absolutely battering our various secretaries, ministers, and negotiators that have had to deal with them that has ended up leaving us with such a bad deal, eh?
    They were supposed to negotiate with us. Most of the time they refused to, simply telling us what we must NOT expect.

    Negotiators are meant to do just that. The EU chose arrogance over negotiating in good faith. That is the truth of the matter.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    They were supposed to negotiate with us. Most of the time they refused to, simply telling us what we must NOT expect.

    Negotiators are meant to do just that. The EU chose arrogance over negotiating in good faith. That is the truth of the matter.
    Of course - do you know what the DUP said during the negotiations? (I may of posted it before in the thread but if not)- ‘This is a game of who blinks first, and we’ve cut off our eyelids’ sure sounds like they were ready to negotiate, yeah?

    I remember (you may too) about being told how desperate the EU would be to be on good terms with the U.K. That we were so powerful and important and the EU would be begging us for a deal, some oaf even said it would be the easiest trade deal in history (or something to that effect), and that it was the ‘remoaners’ and people who were ‘talking Britain down’ who were coming out with sentiments like ‘maybe we won’t be able to force the hand of 27 other nations, maybe they will be in a stronger position than us...’ you remember those times right?
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Of course - do you know what the DUP said during the negotiations? (I may of posted it before in the thread but if not)- ‘This is a game of who blinks first, and we’ve cut off our eyelids’ sure sounds like they were ready to negotiate, yeah?

    I remember (you may too) about being told how desperate the EU would be to be on good terms with the U.K. That we were so powerful and important and the EU would be begging us for a deal, some oaf even said it would be the easiest trade deal in history (or something to that effect), and that it was the ‘remoaners’ and people who were ‘talking Britain down’ who were coming out with sentiments like ‘maybe we won’t be able to force the hand of 27 other nations, maybe they will be in a stronger position than us...’ you remember those times right?
    Not quite in those terms, Noir, no .. I don't.

    Yes, there was optimism that the EU would treat us decently. There was a misplaced assumption that we were seen as a friendly power, one that had been a good EU member. There was illusion to the effect that we'd at least receive respect, be treated accordingly.

    As we've seen, there has been NONE of that, AT ALL.

    If these last 2+ years have shown us anything, Noir, it is that the EU is not a reputable entity. They are NOT our 'friends', and presumably never have been. Why, they kicked things off by demanding many billions of pounds from us, before any talks even 'started'. Even when they did 'start', we didn't find ourselves negotiating. Rather, the EU just told us what they'd never budge on.

    Our one great significance to the EU is what we contribute in revenues demanded of us ... and what did the EU do, but launch into a massive demand for money, at the outset ! The EU has long considered it our duty to help bankroll them. In return, we have the 'pleasure' of being dictated to, our rights as a sovereign nation stunted or even nullified.

    Brexit is meant to put an end to ALL of that. Which means that any deal we reach with them BETRAYS the Referendum result, if it compromises what the pro-Brexit side voted to receive.

    This is why Mrs May needs to leave her job ... in disgrace. The deal she says she believes in, DOES betray the Referendum's outcome.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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    Again there is a lot of ‘look what we did for the EU’ ‘We bankrolled them’ and in essence ‘we were important’...

    I saw a clip of a German satirical program a while ago that was filmed before the Brexit vote, and just watching the German audience laugh at the idea that the U.K. was demanding more from the EU, and that if we got what we wanted we prize to be won was us staying in the EU really hit home in a way that I don’t think it’s possible to replicate via British media.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Again there is a lot of ‘look what we did for the EU’ ‘We bankrolled them’ and in essence ‘we were important’...

    I saw a clip of a German satirical program a while ago that was filmed before the Brexit vote, and just watching the German audience laugh at the idea that the U.K. was demanding more from the EU, and that if we got what we wanted we prize to be won was us staying in the EU really hit home in a way that I don’t think it’s possible to replicate via British media.
    Indeed ... we've massively bankrolled them, in past years. Why do you think the demand for a 'divorce settlement' was as massive as it was, and demanded of us so speedily ? BECAUSE THE EU DIDN'T WANT TO BE OUT OF POCKET, BECAUSE OF OUR LEAVING THEM, FOR SEVERAL YEARS TO COME !!

    You might find this instructive. Open the link. Look at the graph. Note particularly the positioning of the 'crosses', denoting 'Net Contributions'. Ours is the second highest of all the EU countries accounted for.

    Note also that we always give more to the EU than we get back from them ...

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit...6-12?r=US&IR=T

    As for your German satirical programme (you used the American spelling, not the British one ? Interesting ..) .. aren't you just making my overall point for me ? The Germans, along with the EU more generally, have no respect for us. They deride us. Little wonder that Mrs May returned from her meeting with EU leaders so angry that she even gave public voice to it, in her media 'summary of progress', a few weeks ago.

    The EU changed its tune - a little - after her broadcast. As well they might ... despite their disrespect, the EU still want us to be willing to pay their extortion demands, once everything (- they arrogantly hope -) is settled to THEIR, not OUR, satisfaction.

    As for the future ... 'we live in interesting times'. Mrs May is telling us the truth in saying that the deal we have is the only one the EU will settle on. So, what does that mean for any 'no' vote the Commons delivers to Mrs May's Government ?

    The EU is way too arrogant to alter its thinking for our sake. The 'option' for deal tweaking or other reconsiderations is purely imaginary ... dreamed up by an arrogant Labour Party, somehow believing that at this stage the EU would show them, or anybody on our side of the fence, any deference whatever.

    A 'no' vote will kill off any deal-based Brexit.

    We will have - according to Mrs May's 'about-face', just now emerging - TWO options.

    1. Crash out of the EU, minus any deal
    2. Forget leaving the EU entirely !

    Option 2 is much preferred by the EU, of course. Contempt for us or not, they WANT OUR CONTINUED FUNDING !! Additionally, the EU convinces its Member States of the impossibility of their leaving the EU themselves ... a lesson much-prized by any protection racket run anywhere on the planet.

    I suspect that the voting Public throughout the UK will feel total disgust (leading to violence in the streets ??) at the dismissal of their democratic expectations. Few would place trust in future Referenda, and any Government's willingness to see decisions from them through to the end.

    Option 1 is one which will disadvantage us in the short term. However, with the newly-won freedom to, yes, actually trade with anyone we want (!!!) .. something the disgusting EU is still determined to stamp on !! ... in the long term, we'll prosper. Massively so.
    Last edited by Drummond; 11-16-2018 at 10:03 AM.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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  17. #60
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    Default Anti-Brexit scaremongering ....

    Another outstanding interview to add to this list today -

    British government minister Rory Stewart decides to make up some statistics when being interviewed by Emma Barnett because reasons (:

    ——

    Stewart : “I think the game that The Brexiters are playing at the moment are extremely dangerous, they’re not being honest with people about the risks they are taking, and what they are basically doing is radically increasing the risks of us crashing out with no plan and no deal, and that will be catastrophic for our economy and it will create huge divisions within British society.
    One of the advantages of this deal to be honest and one of the reasons why 80% of the British public support this deal is because-“

    Barnett: “80% of the British public support this deal...the draft deal, how on earth do we know that yet?

    Stewart: “Okay okay lemme back on that - my sense is - let me get the language right on this - My sense is that if we have an opportunity to explain this the vast majority of the British public would support this deal

    Barrett: “Where did 80% come from ?”

    Stewart: “Im producing a number to try and illustrate what I believe.”
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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