Anti-Brexit scaremongering ....

[Noir]

Come a hard Brexit .. Southern Ireland can enjoy a taste of EU tyranny, when they see border controls forced on them, whether they like it or not. Let them properly 'appreciate' their lack of freedom in the matter.

and as for Northern Ireland?

[Drummond]

and as for Northern Ireland?

Seems to me that you should be asking the EU that question. Nobody on the British side (i.e our negotiators) is, or has been, in favour of a hard border .. we've wanted a continuation of the status quo. However, EU obstinacy has put us in a position of offering just one deal, one they refuse to replace or amend, which we cannot ratify.

The EU will have to blink, will have to change its stance, if progress is to be made. This is the one and only means by which a result that could serve everyone's interests can be reached.

[Noir]

Seems to me that you should be asking the EU that question. Nobody on the British side (i.e our negotiators) is, or has been, in favour of a hard border .. we've wanted a continuation of the status quo. However, EU obstinacy has put us in a position of offering just one deal, one they refuse to replace or amend, which we cannot ratify.

The EU will have to blink, will have to change its stance, if progress is to be made. This is the one and only means by which a result that could serve everyone's interests can be reached.

The status quo...i.e. the free movement of people and goods between the U.K. and the E.U?

[Drummond]

The status quo...i.e. the free movement of people and goods between the U.K. and the E.U?

Pedantry, much ?

My meaning is clear to you. I'm talking about a frictionless border.

Northern Ireland wants that.

Southern Ireland wants that.

The British Government has long taken the stance that this is what they want.

However ... the EU has failed to facilitate any such outcome, saddling us with a 'deal' which is effectively useless. There's far too much resistance in the House of Commons to allow its ratification, and without ratification, it can't be implemented.

The EU's answer, until now, has been to do NOTHING to solve any of this. They won't offer alternatives. They won't give an inch. Their position seems to be that, however intractable the difficulties, WE must bend to THEM.

Trouble is, the more bending we'd do, the more meaningless the whole Brexit 'process' would really be.

So, here we are. With a stupid mess, being fueled by EU control-freaking obstinacy, driven by characters apparently incapable of believing that anyone should defy them, ever ...

[Noir]

Pedantry, much ?

My meaning is clear to you. I'm talking about a frictionless border.

Northern Ireland wants that.

Southern Ireland wants that.

The British Government has long taken the stance that this is what they want.

However ... the EU has failed to facilitate any such outcome, saddling us with a 'deal' which is effectively useless. There's far too much resistance in the House of Commons to allow its ratification, and without ratification, it can't be implemented.

The EU's answer, until now, has been to do NOTHING to solve any of this. They won't offer alternatives. They won't give an inch. Their position seems to be that, however intractable the difficulties, WE must bend to THEM.

Trouble is, the more bending we'd do, the more meaningless the whole Brexit 'process' would really be.

So, here we are. With a stupid mess, being fueled by EU control-freaking obstinacy, driven by characters apparently incapable of believing that anyone should defy them, ever ...

You can’t have a frictionless border if you also want to have customs controls.

[Drummond]

You can’t have a frictionless border if you also want to have customs controls.

... and therein lies the problem.

The EU, in the case of a crash-out Brexit, will insist upon those controls .. and then Southern Ireland can get a taste of what the reality, for them, of being a puppet EU Member State really entails.

I hope they enjoy their little epiphany. Maybe it'll teach them a thing or two .. who knows.

Of course, the EU could've avoided this mess by coming up with a deal which we COULD ratify. Everyone close to this issue .. Northern Ireland, Southern Ireland, the UK -- can all live with a frictionless border, and effectively have, for a very considerable time. It works well.

It's only the obstinate control freaks in the EU who insist that nothing short of a hard border will suffice. That 'THEIR' territory, as such, holds an inviolable status. Southern Ireland can get used to a little bit of dictatorship from the EU for real.

Or ... they could, themselves, quit the EU .... and, why not ?? Ireland thinks of itself as being its own country, not of being a territory owned by foreign powers. But in this, they're deluding themselves. THEY ARE NOT. The one and only way they can maintain a belief in themselves of being an autonomous country, caring about and determining their own fate, is to shake themselves free of the overriding power that the EU insists upon subjecting them to.

[Noir]

... and therein lies the problem.

The EU, in the case of a crash-out Brexit, will insist upon those controls .. and then Southern Ireland can get a taste of what the reality, for them, of being a puppet EU Member State really entails.

It’s difficult to pin down what part of this you don’t understand.

1- The U.K. and Ireland are in a customs union because they are both in the EU. Which allowed for a frictionless border.
2- The U.K. voted to leave the EU.
3- Leaving the EU means breaking the customs union. Which means there can not be a frictionless border.
Do you disagree with points 1, 2, or 3?

[aboutime]

It’s difficult to pin down what part of this you don’t understand.

1- The U.K. and Ireland are in a customs union because they are both in the EU. Which allowed for a frictionless border.
2- The U.K. voted to leave the EU.
3- Leaving the EU means breaking the customs union. Which means there can not be a frictionless border.
Do you disagree with points 1, 2, or 3?

So, you wouldn't mind losing YOUR Sovereignty?????

[Drummond]

It’s difficult to pin down what part of this you don’t understand.

1- The U.K. and Ireland are in a customs union because they are both in the EU. Which allowed for a frictionless border.
2- The U.K. voted to leave the EU.
3- Leaving the EU means breaking the customs union. Which means there can not be a frictionless border.
Do you disagree with points 1, 2, or 3?

I understand all of this.

What you are not grasping is the nature of the common denominator behind all this .. namely, how the EU views what it sees as 'its' borders, and ITS utter determination to dictate to other countries what form of handling those borders must endure.

The EU is an artificial construct, made possible in its current form, and accordingly maintained, by power mongers. Those power-hungry people, and interests, are totally determined to make the Member States into simply component parts of the single entity of the EU.

An EU SuperState is the goal. In such a setup, no part of the 'EU's border' is distinct from any other part, with the very concept of 'individual countries' within it dwindling into near-irrelevance.

This is why Southern Ireland would be extremely wise to see for itself that IT HAS NO ULTIMATE CONTROL OVER ITS OWN BORDER, and comprehend what that truly means.

This is part of why Brexit even exists. WE want to control OUR borders. Yes ... we dare to want that for ourselves ! So, once Southern Ireland wakes up from its stupor, it'll need to see where the alternative leads.

So, here we are .. with nobody on our side of the North Sea wanting any hard border existing between Northern Ireland and its southern counterpart. Enter the EU on to the scene, insisting that everybody's wishes must be overridden, to bend instead to theirs, in the case of a hard Brexit.

They inserted the 'Backstop' into our deal for a reason. This was to exercise extended control, and its consequent abiding EU tie-in, over all interested parties. This was done on the basis of the EXCUSE that no part of the EU border must be treated any differently to any other.

I have made clear why that is. It's nothing more than an insisted-upon power play. The EU could be lax on this. They choose not to be.

It's all about power, and conning people into believing that no other understanding can be possible. Because any alternative permits all the players involved to see that the EU doesn't need to be as power-obsessed as it really is.

[Noir]

I understand all of this.

What you are not grasping is the nature of the common denominator behind all this .. namely, how the EU views what it sees as 'its' borders, and ITS utter determination to dictate to other countries what form of handling those borders must endure.

The EU is an artificial construct, made possible in its current form, and accordingly maintained, by power mongers. Those power-hungry people, and interests, are totally determined to make the Member States into simply component parts of the single entity of the EU.

An EU SuperState is the goal. In such a setup, no part of the 'EU's border' is distinct from any other part, with the very concept of 'individual countries' within it dwindling into near-irrelevance.

This is why Southern Ireland would be extremely wise to see for itself that IT HAS NO ULTIMATE CONTROL OVER ITS OWN BORDER, and comprehend what that truly means.

This is part of why Brexit even exists. WE want to control OUR borders. Yes ... we dare to want that for ourselves ! So, once Southern Ireland wakes up from its stupor, it'll need to see where the alternative leads.

So, here we are .. with nobody on our side of the North Sea wanting any hard border existing between Northern Ireland and its southern counterpart. Enter the EU on to the scene, insisting that everybody's wishes must be overridden, to bend instead to theirs, in the case of a hard Brexit.

They inserted the 'Backstop' into our deal for a reason. This was to exercise extended control, and its consequent abiding EU tie-in, over all interested parties. This was done on the basis of the EXCUSE that no part of the EU border must be treated any differently to any other.

I have made clear why that is. It's nothing more than an insisted-upon power play. The EU could be lax on this. They choose not to be.

It's all about power, and conning people into believing that no other understanding can be possible. Because any alternative permits all the players involved to see that the EU doesn't need to be as power-obsessed as it really is.

Okay, so we’re back to the start - How do you propose to regulate customs without boarder checks?

[Drummond]

Okay, so we’re back to the start - How do you propose to regulate customs without boarder checks?

... and there it is ... an absolute insistence in believing that there's an inviolable aspect of 'EU territory', as such.

See the problem ?

Southern Ireland is a country in its own right. The extent to which the EU is allowed to interfere in that, only goes to prove my point, namely, that the EU exists to redefine all Member State territories as its territories.

I say: let Southern Ireland come to terms with the very stark fact that their own country is no longer, effectively, theirs to exercise control over. Let Southern Ireland insist that the EU stops meddling in its affairs.

-- Or, launch its own version of Brexit. This it will need to do, if it wants to control its own destiny.

If they don't, then they can have the sheer pleasure of having their borders controlled for them. Or simply be ordered to control them in the way that the EU insists they do.

[By the way, the spelling is still 'BORDER'...]

[Noir]

If Ireland decide that they want to have a vote to leave the EU to break away from the customs union, so they can set their own customs tariffs with the U.K. then that’s their prerogative, but that’s not what the reality of the situation is now, or is going to be in a months time.

So living within reality we have to propose how we are going to regulate customs controls, because the U.K. decided that’s what they want.

[Drummond]

If Ireland decide that they want to have a vote to leave the EU to break away from the customs union, so they can set their own customs tariffs with the U.K. then that’s their prerogative, but that’s not what the reality of the situation is now, or is going to be in a months time.

... indeed. They've not quite, yet, woken up to the reality of their situation. Who knows .. maybe they never will, or at least, decide to just cave in to it.

So living within reality we have to propose how we are going to regulate customs controls, because the U.K. decided that’s what they want.

I daresay that the UK has to make its own effort on this, since that is, yes, the reality as it's emerging.

But don't kid yourself. The EU and its institutionalised control-freakery is the main driver behind all this. You can be sure that they'll move heaven and earth to dictate the terms they want for it .. on both sides, if they think they can get away with it.

[Noir]

I daresay that the UK has to make its own effort on this, since that is, yes, the reality as it's emerging.

So given the reality of the situation, how do you propose the U.K. can enforce customs controls without a hard border?

[Drummond]

So given the reality of the situation, how do you propose the U.K. can enforce customs controls without a hard border?

I see no evidence from you of any acknowledgment that it's the EU's power-mania, that of insisting that other countries defer control of their very territorial rights to THEM, that is the very root of the problem.

Without that in play, none of this mess would even exist. No consideration of border controls would be an issue. The 'deal' would not include any backstop arrangement, and therefore, would most likely have been ratified on the UK side by now.

But, to answer you: it seems to me that the only requirement of border control emanates from the EU. Therefore, why isn't this ENTIRELY the EU's 'problem' .. ? They could impose their 'requirments' on the Southern Ireland side of the border, and we just let them get on with it.

Too bad if Southern Ireland is 'a bit miffed' about it all. This is what happens when you give up your very autonomy to foreign control-freaks.