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  1. #31
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    Default Anti-Brexit scaremongering ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    Isn't it foolish to increasingly sign away your very autonomy (!!) to a foreign power, in the HOPE that all the laws and strictures they insist upon inflicting will work in your favour ?
    As oppose to being separate from the ‘foreign power’ wherein it’s in their interests to work against you?

    Isn't it particularly foolish to have an island nation forced to maintain permanently open borders to the inhabitants of literally dozens of other nations ?? Do we have infinite room, infinite resources ?
    Whereas it is in no way foolish for the U.K. to demand they control there own immigration, and then have no proposal for how they are going to control immigration at their only land boarder.



    I think what you really mean (.. but probably won't admit ..) is that very few foresaw just how disgustingly uncooperative and bullying the EU side was going to be throughout these so-called 'negotiations'. We've struggled to get any decent agreements from them. We've struggled to such an extent that we may HAVE to walk away, minus a deal.
    I think a lot of people foresaw the problems caused by leaving - they called themselves ‘The Remain Campaign’

    You really care LESS about the 'destination' ? Really ? I find that rather hard to believe.
    That’s understandable, given you care more about the destination than the path.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    As oppose to being separate from the ‘foreign power’ wherein it’s in their interests to work against you?
    What do you propose ? That we remain a part of them, then, so they can continue to increasingly dominate us ... when they've already proven their willingness to act against our interests ??

    Whereas it is in no way foolish for the U.K. to demand they control there own immigration, and then have no proposal for how they are going to control immigration at their only land boarder.
    The word is still 'BORDER'.

    Well, quite. We control as WE choose. Try to get used to the idea !

    Perhaps it'll take a 'no deal' scenario before the EU finally gets to grip with that concept.

    I think a lot of people foresaw the problems caused by leaving - they called themselves ‘The Remain Campaign’
    I call them 'sellouts'. People who somehow think we have no right to our own autonomy.

    That’s understandable, given you care more about the destination than the path.
    The destination matters greatly. It does, after all, define our entire future !! Our entire future is a teensy bit more important than the machinations that led up to it !!!
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

  3. #33
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    Default Anti-Brexit scaremongering ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    What do you propose ? That we remain a part of them, then, so they can continue to increasingly dominate us ... when they've already proven their willingness to act against our interests ??
    I propose a stance of fighting for your autonomy within the system itself, and if leaving the system is preferred then the roadmap should be clear and public. We got neither.

    The word is still 'BORDER'.

    Well, quite. We control as WE choose. Try to get used to the idea !

    Perhaps it'll take a 'no deal' scenario before the EU finally gets to grip with that concept.
    Are you aware what the British government guidelines are for businesses that expect to trade etc with Ireland in the event of a ‘no deal’?



    I call them 'sellouts'. People who somehow think we have no right to our own autonomy.
    Call them as you please, but accept atleast that it was the Remain side that were spouting how difficult the leaving process would be.

    The destination matters greatly. It does, after all, define our entire future !! Our entire future is a teensy bit more important than the machinations that led up to it !!!
    Not if getting to the destination cripples the country along the way (I know I know - Doomsday Naysayers etc).
    Last edited by Noir; 08-30-2018 at 08:45 AM.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    I propose a stance of fighting for your autonomy within the system itself, and if leaving the system is preferred then the roadmap should be clear and public. We got neither.
    Are you serious ??

    The whole direction the EU is taking is one of chipping AWAY at autonomy !! Laws are always being passed in their version of a Parliament, laws meant to supersede more 'local' ones in force in individual Nation States. Add to that the 'independent' workings of their Human Rights commission ....

    Good God. Have you no conception of the everyday workings of the EU ?? Why do you think they have an EU Parliament, if it isn't to exercise control over their Member States ??

    Are you aware what the British government guidelines are for businesses that expect to trade etc with Ireland in the event of a ‘no deal’?
    No, nor do I much care. No doubt it's all meant to meet a 'worst case' scenario. Besides, since southern Ireland will remain an EU State, no doubt they'll dream up ways to be awkward that haven't even been thought of yet.

    The EU Parliament may in any case think up new restrictive practices that Ireland will be expected to obey ....

    Call them as you please, but accept atleast that it was the Remain side that were spouting how difficult the leaving process would be.
    .... and, they still are. What's the title of this thread, h'mm ?

    In any case, the Remain side was all about keeping us being dictated to by the EU. Perhaps the 'Remain' side understood what control freaks the EU are .. ?

    Not if getting to the destination cripples the country along the way (I know I know - Doomsday Naysayers etc).
    There we have it .. proof of how much you DO care about the 'destination', after all.

    Quite.

    I'm reminded of Hitler's takeover of other European countries. Does it occur to you that your argument is an equivalent of telling Resistance fighters not to fight ? Consider the chaos they might cause !!!
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

  5. #35
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    Default Anti-Brexit scaremongering ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    No, nor do I much care.
    Great.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Great.
    Glad you approve.

    At the end of the day, Noir, Brexit will happen. It can happen with a deal. It can happen without one. Whether or not we get one depends on the EU reversing course, and - finally - treating us fairly and decently.

    If they don't ... and, given that our side does no more crawling !!! ... then, we walk.

    The EU can FINALLY behave, and act decently, even if it is rather late in the day for them. It's their choice.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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  8. #37
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    Default Anti-Brexit scaremongering ....

    @Drummond - as you’re about, thoughts on the Conservative party conference, and whether or not the ‘Chequers agreement’ should be their Brexit pursuit?

    You’re welcome to ignore the Northern Ireland border issue which is becoming clearer by the day.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    @Drummond - as you’re about, thoughts on the Conservative party conference, and whether or not the ‘Chequers agreement’ should be their Brexit pursuit?

    You’re welcome to ignore the Northern Ireland border issue which is becoming clearer by the day.
    I've not been watching it ... though I'll watch Mrs May's speech tomorrow. I have my recorder set up to record it, as well.

    I hear that Boris had harsh words to say about the Chequers agreement, in his own 'rival' venue, earlier today. I think he's right. The Chequers plan is too much of a sellout to the EU, ensuring a clean break with the EU does not happen by the end of March, 2019.

    People didn't vote for fudge deals back in June 2016 .. they wanted OUT of the EU. No 'if's, buts, or maybes'. Whatever deal is struck, should ensure such an outcome, when it's due, without any qualifying failure to achieve that end in its entirety.

    In reality ... 'Chequers', fudge though it is, also illustrates just how disgustingly intransigent the EU side has been. 'Chequers' was Mrs May's attempt to get a good deal, in the face of an acknowledgment of the EU's conduct thus far. It boggles the mind that the EU doesn't appreciate it in those terms.

    We've been shown scant respect from the EU side, which needs to change, very quickly. If it doesn't, not only should we threaten to walk out minus a deal, but we SHOULD do so.

    In that event, all of the EU's attempts to extort money from us should be rebuffed. If we're to pay them anything, it should be in payment for SOMETHING ... and not a reward for unceasing arrogance from the EU side.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

  10. #39
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    Default Anti-Brexit scaremongering ....

    Based on that - would you support Chequers over No Deal, or do you think No Deal is superior to Chequers?
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Based on that - would you support Chequers over No Deal, or do you think No Deal is superior to Chequers?
    A deal is better than no deal. Chequers is, to an extent, an effort to appease the EU .. and one the EU was way too arrogant to appreciate.

    But, is Chequers a step too far ? Boris certainly thinks so.

    My view is that Chequers is a poor deal. I don't like it much. I favour the EU saying 'yes' to it, rather than us walking out minus a deal ... JUST. It's a close call, though.

    I believe that the EU should appreciate our efforts. They don't, though. It'd be nice if that were to change. I don't think it will.

    I think we're heading towards 'no deal'. I think the EU's disgusting belligerence, their refusal to actually NEGOTIATE (which invariably involves all those concerned giving something, to get something, which the EU hasn't done at all) is causing talks to head towards a collapse.

    You know yourself that Mrs May talked of talks reaching near-stalemate ... an 'impasse', using her word. It's for the EU to drop its arrogance and finally negotiate, IF in fact we now have enough time for it.

    I don't think that'll happen.

    Without that change, we'll have to walk away minus a deal. It'll be right that we do so.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

  12. #41
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    Default Anti-Brexit scaremongering ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    But, is Chequers a step too far ? Boris certainly thinks so.
    Not just Boris - Davis, Leadsom, Fox, Gove, Grayling, Javid, and some 40+ other members ERG have intimidated that if the Chequers agreement was put to parliament they would nit dupport it.

    Given it does not seem clear chequers would even make it past our own legislature, why should the EU support it?
    Last edited by Noir; 10-03-2018 at 08:07 AM.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Not just Boris - Davis, Leadsom, Fox, Gove, Grayling, Javid, and some 40+ other members ERG have intimidated that if the Chequers agreement was put to parliament they would nit dupport it.

    Given it does not seem clear chequers would even make it past our own legislature, why should the EU support it?
    [... not sure about 'nit dupport'. Never mind ...]

    Interesting 'logic' in play, here ! I must surely infer from your post that you think the EU is required to see things, just as British Brexiteers do !!

    The mind boggles. Can you really not see what's wrong with that picture ??

    I've already explained 'why' the EU should've been, at least, receptive to the Chequers proposal. Because, obviously, it represents a negotiating position which has elements favouring the EU. Because it represents a move forward, instead of perpetuated stagnation.

    That's why.

    The EU didn't even see fit to give a detailed rebuttal to it. Just an 'it won't work' declaration.

    I don't think the EU ever will offer us any deal we can accept ... very possibly, they'll end up offering nothing (blaming us, of course, not them ...).

    At this rate, our walking away is a matter of 'when', not 'if'.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    [... not sure about 'nit dupport'. Never mind ...]
    A typo, so I’ll take a second run at it.

    Boris, Davis, Leadsom, Fox, Gove, Grayling, Javid, and some 40+ other members ERG have intimidated that if the Chequers agreement was put to parliament they would not support it.

    Why should the EU want to agree to a deal that looks unlikely to make it through our legislative process?
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    A typo, so I’ll take a second run at it.

    Boris, Davis, Leadsom, Fox, Gove, Grayling, Javid, and some 40+ other members ERG have intimidated that if the Chequers agreement was put to parliament they would not support it.

    Why should the EU want to agree to a deal that looks unlikely to make it through our legislative process?
    I'm very sure that the EU really DO think that our legislative process is everything to do with them ... that, Noir, is a part of the problem !!

    It's ultimately not their business. Their remit is (or is supposed to be) that they negotiate with our negotiators, and then, if any deal is struck, we do with that deal what we will.

    Parliament, if it really insists on having its say, then has its chance to damage or destroy the viability of what the negotiators come back with. It'll be interesting to see if they really do turn their role into one of vandalism instead of verification, and render all our negotiation efforts (such as they ever were !) useless.

    Then ... what else can we do, but just walk away minus any executable deal ? Give up on Brexit altogether, and just grossly insult the Will of the People, and direct democratic process itself .. ??

    The Left will no doubt like that. A lot.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

  16. #45
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    Default Anti-Brexit scaremongering ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    Then ... what else can we do, but just walk away minus any executable deal ? Give up on Brexit altogether, and just grossly insult the Will of the People, and direct democratic process itself .. ??

    The Left will no doubt like that. A lot.
    What we will do most likely is walk away without a deal, and be worse off, because that’s what the direct democratic process demands.

    In the meantime, I hear that the Conservatives are finally starting to take seriously the problem they’ve created for themselves by giving a smidge of power to the DUP. Who’d of thunk ^,^;
    Last edited by Noir; 10-30-2018 at 03:47 AM.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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