Anti-Brexit scaremongering ....

[Noir]

Leaked Brexit declaration regarding fisheries, pls excuse me while I have a hearty laugh ^,^

[Gunny]

Indeed ... we've massively bankrolled them, in past years. Why do you think the demand for a 'divorce settlement' was as massive as it was, and demanded of us so speedily ? BECAUSE THE EU DIDN'T WANT TO BE OUT OF POCKET, BECAUSE OF OUR LEAVING THEM, FOR SEVERAL YEARS TO COME !!

You might find this instructive. Open the link. Look at the graph. Note particularly the positioning of the 'crosses', denoting 'Net Contributions'. Ours is the second highest of all the EU countries accounted for.

Note also that we always give more to the EU than we get back from them ...

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit...6-12?r=US&IR=T

As for your German satirical programme (you used the American spelling, not the British one ? Interesting ..) .. aren't you just making my overall point for me ? The Germans, along with the EU more generally, have no respect for us. They deride us. Little wonder that Mrs May returned from her meeting with EU leaders so angry that she even gave public voice to it, in her media 'summary of progress', a few weeks ago.

The EU changed its tune - a little - after her broadcast. As well they might ... despite their disrespect, the EU still want us to be willing to pay their extortion demands, once everything (- they arrogantly hope -) is settled to THEIR, not OUR, satisfaction.

As for the future ... 'we live in interesting times'. Mrs May is telling us the truth in saying that the deal we have is the only one the EU will settle on. So, what does that mean for any 'no' vote the Commons delivers to Mrs May's Government ?

The EU is way too arrogant to alter its thinking for our sake. The 'option' for deal tweaking or other reconsiderations is purely imaginary ... dreamed up by an arrogant Labour Party, somehow believing that at this stage the EU would show them, or anybody on our side of the fence, any deference whatever.

A 'no' vote will kill off any deal-based Brexit.

We will have - according to Mrs May's 'about-face', just now emerging - TWO options.

1. Crash out of the EU, minus any deal
2. Forget leaving the EU entirely !

Option 2 is much preferred by the EU, of course. Contempt for us or not, they WANT OUR CONTINUED FUNDING !! Additionally, the EU convinces its Member States of the impossibility of their leaving the EU themselves ... a lesson much-prized by any protection racket run anywhere on the planet.

I suspect that the voting Public throughout the UK will feel total disgust (leading to violence in the streets ??) at the dismissal of their democratic expectations. Few would place trust in future Referenda, and any Government's willingness to see decisions from them through to the end.

Option 1 is one which will disadvantage us in the short term. However, with the newly-won freedom to, yes, actually trade with anyone we want (!!!) .. something the disgusting EU is still determined to stamp on !! ... in the long term, we'll prosper. Massively so.

Your posts are very informative. Does the US Democratic party run the EU? Sounds like it.

[Drummond]

Your posts are very informative. Does the US Democratic party run the EU? Sounds like it.

I'm sure that they wish they did !

In any case: Obama was so friendly towards them as to - do you recall this ? - try and skew our Referendum vote in the EU's favour. Remember his telling the UK that if we voted to leave the EU, we could forget doing trade deals with the US ? We were told we could expect to go to the back of the queue for such deals, if we voted in a way he didn't approve of.

This didn't go down too well with Brits, as you can imagine. I think we looked upon him less favourably as a result of his clear intention to interfere with our democratic decision.

President Trump's approach couldn't be more different. He's pleased with the Referendum vote, and is keen to forge new and close trading ties with the UK ... IF ... we rid ourselves of the EU entirely.

[Drummond]

Leaked Brexit declaration regarding fisheries, pls excuse me while I have a hearty laugh ^,^

I have to agree .. it's pathetic. A result of the EU's outrageous stagnation over the last two years ?

[Gunny]

I'm sure that they wish they did !

In any case: Obama was so friendly towards them as to - do you recall this ? - try and skew our Referendum vote in the EU's favour. Remember his telling the UK that if we voted to leave the EU, we could forget doing trade deals with the US ? We were told we could expect to go to the back of the queue for such deals, if we voted in a way he didn't approve of.

This didn't go down too well with Brits, as you can imagine. I think we looked upon him less favourably as a result of his clear intention to interfere with our democratic decision.

President Trump's approach couldn't be more different. He's pleased with the Referendum vote, and is keen to forge new and close trading ties with the UK ... IF ... we rid ourselves of the EU entirely.

I vaguely recall Obama saying such. He was about as anti-American and our allies as it gets so it isn't surprising.

That also reinforces my point that was I the UK, I'd jump ship NOW while Trump is the US President. I'm sure he'd be more than happy to make a deal with the UK just to thumb the EU in the eye if nothing else.

[Noir]

I have to agree .. it's pathetic. A result of the EU's outrageous stagnation over the last two years ?

A result of the fact that our negotiations have lead to awful deals, because we are negotiating from such a weak position.

We now know the Northern Ireland border and fisheries have been botched - looking forward to see what other deals our elite Brexit negotiating team have been able to make (:

[Gunny]

A result of the fact that our negotiations have lead to awful deals, because we are negotiating from such a weak position.

We now know the Northern Ireland border and fisheries have been botched - looking forward to see what other deals our elite Brexit negotiating team have been able to make (:

Negotiating from a "weak position" is in your head. Negotiating "in good faith" is the right and proper way to do things. Unfortunately, the EU is not. In such a circumstance, the kid gloves come off and you shove it up the EU's backside. The strength of the EU is they have you believing they are strong.

[Noir]

Negotiating from a "weak position" is in your head. Negotiating "in good faith" is the right and proper way to do things. Unfortunately, the EU is not. In such a circumstance, the kid gloves come off and you shove it up the EU's backside. The strength of the EU is they have you believing they are strong.

Okay so - The pro-Brexit euro-skeptic party went into negotiations with the group they described as a faceless, bureaucratic, unaccountable, power-centric Europeans. And their excuse for walking away with a bad deal (which plenty of Tories are trying to play of as a good deal would you believe) is because those dastardly Europeans were too mean?

[Drummond]

A result of the fact that our negotiations have lead to awful deals, because we are negotiating from such a weak position.

We now know the Northern Ireland border and fisheries have been botched - looking forward to see what other deals our elite Brexit negotiating team have been able to make (:

DID we negotiate from 'a weak position' .. ? I disagree.

We may not have had a very great deal to bargain with. But don't discount the importance, to the EU, of (for example) the future of EU citizens choosing to live and work, after Brexit, within the UK. And ... most importantly ... we are a prime contributor to EU coffers. Why do you think their very first move was to demand £100 billion pounds from us ??

We could've used that to insist upon a good deal .. saying you'll not even get the £39 million agreed upon unless we get a good deal.

But, no. Mrs May cared too much about getting ANY deal (I think that the very act of getting one was something she thought the history books would praise her over, possibly even present-day UK citizens, incredibly !!). So, she conceded ... too much.

Such was her personal pride, put before all else.

I very much doubt Parliament will ratify the deal.

[Drummond]

A result of the fact that our negotiations have lead to awful deals, because we are negotiating from such a weak position.

We now know the Northern Ireland border and fisheries have been botched - looking forward to see what other deals our elite Brexit negotiating team have been able to make (:

You're too eager to blame our side for 'botched' terms. I remind you of what you should already well know ... an inordinate amount of time was wasted, BY THE EU, in doing NO negotiating. When they weren't demanding money, they were busily telling us what they definitely would not budge on.

Negotiation involves (to whatever degree) a measure of give and take. For most of this last 2 years, the EU has concentrated on 'take' to the cost of any willingness to 'give' anything at all.

You want to apportion blame. Yes ? OK, then. The lion's share should go, without question, to the EU ... who've blackmailed, bullied, demanded, laid down the law .. ANYTHING but negotiate in good faith.

Noir, whether or not you'll admit it, you know I'm right. The EU's 'negotiating' conduct (& I think deliberately, tactically so, throughout all this time) has been disreputable in the extreme.

[Noir]

“The bad, mean, dastardly side made demands and bullied us out of making a good deal”

A generic quote covering the history of time whenever one side is strong, the other weak, and the strong win the day.

The side that holds the power makes the demands, the side that doesn’t pleads for more and if they’re lucky get it, apparently we weren’t lucky, so no deal it is.

[Gunny]

“The bad, mean, dastardly side made demands and bullied us out of making a good deal”

A generic quote covering the history of time whenever one side is strong, the other weak, and the strong win the day.

The side that holds the power makes the demands, the side that doesn’t pleads for more and if they’re lucky get it, apparently we weren’t lucky, so no deal it is.

When the side that "holds power" is a paper tiger and so arrogant that it believes its own hype won't be reasonable you walk on them. What are they going to do? Get mad? Call the UK names?

Let me guess ... those European nations that can't even keep out or control a bunch of ME refugees are going to use force? Like WWII? They aren't going to do anything but whine and cry. Probably threaten anyone offering to deal with the UK; which, in case you haven't noticed would just make Trump's day if not year.

Shouldn't let fear drive you so much, Noir. Really unbecoming.

[Noir]

When the side that "holds power" is a paper tiger and so arrogant that it believes its own hype won't be reasonable you walk on them. What are they going to do? Get mad? Call the UK names?

A ‘paper tiger’ that the U.K. Brexit team capitulated under (don’t take my word for it - I’m sure Drummond would be happy to tell you how bad every aspect of this deal we know about is)

As to ‘what will they do’. Take the U.K. fisheries for example, as they are outlined in the leaked text above, the EU will stop allocation of fishing quotas for the U.K. in EU waters, and the U.K. would then do the same for the EU in U.K. waters, guess who comes of worse in that exchange?

[Gunny]

A ‘paper tiger’ that the U.K. Brexit team capitulated under (don’t take my word for it - I’m sure Drummond would be happy to tell you how bad every aspect of this deal we know about is)

As to ‘what will they do’. Take the U.K. fisheries for example, as they are outlined in the leaked text above, the EU will stop allocation of fishing quotas for the U.K. in EU waters, and the U.K. would then do the same for the EU in U.K. waters, guess who comes of worse in that exchange?

So THAT's what you're afraid of. This time You would have to defend your Rights AND fend for yourselves. Something no good socialist like you is up to.

Even if you don't want to get your balls back, Noir, it appears others do. I realize you prefer being a live, mediocre slave to a dead patriot, but not everyone feels that way.

[Black Diamond]

So THAT's what you're afraid of. This time You would have to defend your Rights AND fend for yourselves. Something no good socialist like you is up to.

Even if you don't want to get your balls back, Noir, it appears others do. I realize you prefer being a live, mediocre slave to a dead patriot, but not everyone feels that way.

Secede bumper sticker on his HD 2500.