Page 8 of 14 FirstFirst ... 678910 ... LastLast
Results 106 to 120 of 209
  1. #106
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    South Wales, UK
    Posts
    11,895
    Thanks (Given)
    20722
    Thanks (Received)
    8222
    Likes (Given)
    2213
    Likes (Received)
    1128
    Piss Off (Given)
    5
    Piss Off (Received)
    0
    Mentioned
    164 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    19319416

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    “Better to wait for better times”
    I could not adequately describe how hearty a chuckle that like drew out of me, pure gold.
    Noir. You KNOW better times are ahead.

    Mrs May can't - surely - last too much longer. She'll be replaced by somebody tougher, more uncompromising. That replacement, if worthy of his / her job, will toughly challenge the EU to offer us something better in a future deal. If they do, then, they do (... but it'd be out of character for them, so I very much doubt it). If they don't ... we get out of the EU minus a deal, initially saving ourselves 39 billion pounds. We'll go full pelt to get other deals from whatever country will give us good and worthy ones (e.g, the US !!! ).

    Teething troubles from initial exit over with ... we'll prosper, probably like never before. So, yes, Noir. BETTER TIMES.

    Sure - Too bureaucratic, not transparent in policy or process, poor implementation of international court rulings, unnecessary formation of executive, poor responses to financial crisis, very slow to modernise law in the digital space (ie net neutrality, Patents etc), poor protections and representation for smaller countries...the list goes on, and on.
    By God. You did it ! Well done.

    So, OK. From your list ... I must assume that, when we rid ourselves of that pathetic, dictatorial, stultifyingly slow & grossly inefficient waste of space otherwise known as the EU ... you'll be cheering at least as loudly as I will be ...

    ... YES ? ...
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

  2. #107
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    12,358
    Mentioned
    79 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    4760244

    Default Anti-Brexit scaremongering ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    Noir. You KNOW better times are ahead.

    Mrs May can't - surely - last too much longer. She'll be replaced by somebody tougher, more uncompromising. That replacement, if worthy of his / her job, will toughly challenge the EU to offer us something better in a future deal. If they do, then, they do (... but it'd be out of character for them, so I very much doubt it). If they don't ... we get out of the EU minus a deal, initially saving ourselves 39 billion pounds. We'll go full pelt to get other deals from whatever country will give us good and worthy ones (e.g, the US !!! ).

    Teething troubles from initial exit over with ... we'll prosper, probably like never before. So, yes, Noir. BETTER TIMES.



    By God. You did it ! Well done.

    So, OK. From your list ... I must assume that, when we rid ourselves of that pathetic, dictatorial, stultifyingly slow & grossly inefficient waste of space otherwise known as the EU ... you'll be cheering at least as loudly as I will be ...

    ... YES ? ...
    I could list 20 things wrong with the house I’m renting - do you think the best decision would be to tear up my tenancy agreement and make myself homeless?
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

  3. #108
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    South Wales, UK
    Posts
    11,895
    Thanks (Given)
    20722
    Thanks (Received)
    8222
    Likes (Given)
    2213
    Likes (Received)
    1128
    Piss Off (Given)
    5
    Piss Off (Received)
    0
    Mentioned
    164 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    19319416

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    I could list 20 things wrong with the house I’m renting - do you think the best decision would be to tear up my tenancy agreement and make myself homeless?
    This argument can't apply. The UK isn't 'making itself homeless' ... UNLESS ... you're arguing that the UK is an entity whose 'home' must be to be governed, dominated, by some sort of 'higher power' ... ?

    You overstate your case.

    If you, say, had a building society account, which gave an unsatisfactory interest rate level for your savings, and into the bargain insisted upon draconian rules for the account you were expected to be subject to .. and you found there were alternative banks out there offering you the chance of better terms for those savings, with a greater degree of autonomy over their fate .. wouldn't you rather 'tear up the building society account', and move to get a better deal ? Wouldn't it make more sense to do that ?
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

  4. #109
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Mid Atlantic
    Posts
    1,773
    Thanks (Given)
    2091
    Thanks (Received)
    2904
    Likes (Given)
    1111
    Likes (Received)
    1238
    Piss Off (Given)
    2
    Piss Off (Received)
    0
    Mentioned
    74 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    15439906

    Default

    Drummond and Noir,

    I should probably already know this, but could you explain the difference between the deal and no-deal Brexits? I understand that one involves UK getting a deal from the EU, but what is the deal that is being sought?

    Thanks - Russ


    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    I did read it, thanks. But, unless you're suggesting that we Brits are incapable of making up for any 'shortfall' ... I fail to understand ...

    My thoughts on a no-deal Brexit are simple. A decent deal is to be preferred. However, I seriously doubt that the control-freaking EU, which has done its damndest throughout to make negotiations anything between very difficult and completely impossible, will allow a decent deal.

    If we have to walk away minus a deal, then, we do. I'm totally sure that it's EU intransigence (I'm being diplomatic !) which will force that outcome on us. Not a great outcome, to be sure, but better than knuckling under to hostile control freaks, determined to rob us of our autonomy.

    We will do what we must, as a proud and independent People, Noir.
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 - A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but a foolish man's heart directs him to the left.
    Wise men don't need advice, and fools won't take it - Ben Franklin
    "It's not how you start, it's how you finish."

  5. #110
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    South Wales, UK
    Posts
    11,895
    Thanks (Given)
    20722
    Thanks (Received)
    8222
    Likes (Given)
    2213
    Likes (Received)
    1128
    Piss Off (Given)
    5
    Piss Off (Received)
    0
    Mentioned
    164 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    19319416

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    Drummond and Noir,

    I should probably already know this, but could you explain the difference between the deal and no-deal Brexits? I understand that one involves UK getting a deal from the EU, but what is the deal that is being sought?

    Thanks - Russ
    Well, Russ .. we have 'a deal' with the EU, agreed by both sides .. but, in order to be brought into being as a working arrangement, it must first be ratified by our Parliament. Mrs May's difficulty is that there is far too much resistance to its acceptance to allow that to happen. Without ratification, the deal fails.

    As to what it is .. see ..

    https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/cheq...d-theresa-may/

    Agriculture and trade The UK and EU agrees a “common rulebook for all goods including agri-foods”, with British ministers committing in a treaty to ongoing harmonisation with EU rules when necessary to provide for frictionless trade at ports and the border with Ireland. The UK Parliament would have the ability to choose not to incorporate future rules, but accepts there would be “consequences” for trade. “Regulatory flexibility” for services, with the UK recognising neither side will enjoy “current levels of access” to each other’s markets.

    UK-EU agreements .. a common rulebook on state aid would be agreed, preventing either side from subsidising their own industries. The UK will commit to maintaining high environmental, climate change, social, employment and consumer protection standards. A joint institutional framework to oversee UK-EU agreements, with the UK agreeing to pay “due regard” to EU case law in areas where the common rulebook applies.

    Access to European single market .. a “facilitated customs agreement” would remove the need for customs checks by treating the UK and EU “as if a combined customs territory”. The UK would apply EU’s tariffs and trade policy on goods intended for the bloc but would control its own tariffs and trade for the domestic market. The trade tariffs plan will be phased in as both sides complete the necessary preparations.

    Benefits from the plan, according to the Government, include: Frictionless access for goods, protecting supply chains the just-in-time model used by major manufacturers such as carmakers. Avoiding the need for a border between Northern Ireland and Ireland or within the UK. Allowing the UK to have an independent trade policy, with the potential to join countries including Japan, Australia, New Zealand and Canada in Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP).

    Ending free movement “giving the UK back control over how many people enter the country”. Ending “vast annual payments” to the EU budget, although “appropriate contributions” will still be made for joint programmes in specific areas.

    What do the Tories think of the plan? The Chequers plan has divided the Tory party to say the least. Former Brexit minister Steve Baker has warned the party faces a “catastrophic split” if the Prime Minister presses ahead with the proposals. And former Brexit Secretary David Davis has said there is a “rock-solid core” of around 40 Tory MPs who are prepared to vote down the deal in the House of Commons.
    There you have it.

    In many ways, Mrs May's Chequers deal is apparently 'a good deal' as such. HOWEVER .. it potentially fails in one crucial area, which has to do with the future of a 'frictionless border', between Northern Ireland (UK) and the Republic of Ireland (EU-aligned territory), so, arguably, is actually NOT a good deal, after all. Each side wants its trade rights protected, but the problem with the current frictionless border is, how do customs and security checks from UK to EU and EU to UK territories work, under such an arrangement ?

    Nobody's found an answer to that yet.

    Enter the now-infamous 'Backstop' arrangement. It provides for continuation for the status quo for - as yet, effectively (.. as it turns out) - AN EFFECTIVELY UNDETERMINED PERIOD. How ? By preserving common Customs arrangements, as they now exist, with us both part of the EU, subject to the same rules.

    The problem is that for as long as this 'backstop' is in force, the UK cannot be said to be free of EU rules, which means that Brexit isn't applied to all aspects of the UK. Effectively, our exit from the EU won't be total until it ends.

    Critics of the backstop couldn't see how we, the UK, could pull out of that arrangement unilaterally ... given that no solution to the trade situation was found, allowing for a full Brexit. The Government had had legal advice on the matter submitted to it ... WHICH THEY REFUSED TO PUBLISH, SO THAT PARLIAMENT COULD SCRUTINISE IT ... until they were forced to, in Parliament. So, after being forced to ... it emerged that the UK, in the view of our own legal experts, would have no power to unilaterally end the backstop just when they chose to. BOTH sides had to agree to do so ... giving the EU potential power to lock us into it INDEFINITELY.

    ... thus ... we'd never be fully rid of the EU, until the EU permitted us to be ... if they ever did !

    Where we now stand on this is that the vote on the Chequers deal was postponed, at the last minute, yesterday (because Mrs May knew that Parliament would never ratify the deal as it stands). She's now speaking to her EU counterparts to get assurances as to exactly how the backstop would be used, if it came to it, by the EU side. She wants to return with assurances that'll satisfy Parliament and allow for ratification.

    Whether she'll get what she's after is highly debatable ... as the EU refuses to renegotiate any part of the deal.

    See also ....

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/11/brex...it-matter.html

    Put briefly ...
    a 'no deal' scenario, by total comparison, is one where all trading perks with the EU end, and we in many ways close our border to the EU. Businesses would have to trade on comparatively disadvantageous 'WTO' rules.

    That said ... at least, we WOULD be free of EU domination in our affairs.
    Last edited by Drummond; 12-11-2018 at 11:04 AM.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

  6. Likes Russ liked this post
  7. #111
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    12,358
    Mentioned
    79 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    4760244

    Default Anti-Brexit scaremongering ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    You see, the Conservatives prefer not to compound difficult situations with un-needed chaotic complications. Better to wait for better times.
    Well apparently the “better times” we were waiting for was yesterday

    A vote of no confidence has been triggered and will take place this evening.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

  8. #112
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    South Wales, UK
    Posts
    11,895
    Thanks (Given)
    20722
    Thanks (Received)
    8222
    Likes (Given)
    2213
    Likes (Received)
    1128
    Piss Off (Given)
    5
    Piss Off (Received)
    0
    Mentioned
    164 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    19319416

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Well apparently the “better times” we were waiting for was yesterday

    A vote of no confidence has been triggered and will take place this evening.
    Your first sentence was as inaccurate as it gets.

    OK, you're fundamentally anti-Conservative ... naturally, I get that. But for all of Mrs May's faults, given a straight choice, I'd back her any day against the likes of Corbyn. Because what you seem to not be grasping is that, out of all this mess, Corbyn's agenda is to seize power for himself and his Party any way he can.

    Yes, the Conservatives are moving at breakneck speed to get the vote on Mrs May's continued leadership over and done with VERY quickly .. I've never, ever, before seen them move as quickly as this. It's not surprising, though, as the contest acts as a distraction to the more fundamentally vital issue of Brexit.

    That said: I want Mrs May gone and replaced by someone tougher, more uncompromising. I want that replacement to re-approach the EU and insist on better terms for our withdrawal from the EU. I want that Conservative-led Government to be prepared to enact a 'no deal' exit, should the EU still refuse to meaningfully cooperate with us.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

  9. #113
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    6,314
    Thanks (Given)
    5
    Thanks (Received)
    354
    Likes (Given)
    36
    Likes (Received)
    131
    Piss Off (Given)
    0
    Piss Off (Received)
    63
    Mentioned
    145 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    We'll go full pelt to get other deals from whatever country will give us good and worthy ones (e.g, the US !!! ).
    I don't know what basis you have for such a wishful opinion. The UK will then be negotiating from a place of desperation and weakness. You think other countries are just going to rescue you, play fair and be nice to you? No, they will smell blood and wring out everything you have. The UK has no valuable resources! You think importing goods from the US is cheaper than uh the EU? Seriously? All just wishful thinking and it is unlikely to unfold as simply as you make it and if it doesn't then you've just made a very serious gamble on the selfish basis of wanting to be a true island in a global economy.
    Last edited by pete311; 12-12-2018 at 10:13 AM.

  10. #114
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    South Wales, UK
    Posts
    11,895
    Thanks (Given)
    20722
    Thanks (Received)
    8222
    Likes (Given)
    2213
    Likes (Received)
    1128
    Piss Off (Given)
    5
    Piss Off (Received)
    0
    Mentioned
    164 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    19319416

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pete311 View Post
    I don't know what basis you have for such a wishful opinion. The UK will then be negotiating from a place of desperation and weakness. You think other countries are just going to rescue you, play fair and be nice to you? No, they will smell blood and wring out everything you have. The UK has no valuable resources! You think importing goods from the US is cheaper than uh the EU? Seriously? All just wishful thinking and it is unlikely to unfold as simply as you make it and if it doesn't then you've just made a very serious gamble on the selfish basis of wanting to be a true island in a global economy.
    Wow. You really hate the thought of an autonomous UK, don't you, Pete ? Is it because the EU represents a stage in increasing globalisation, and you hate to see any nation act to reject it ?

    The EU represents - for all of its lofty thinking about being a major global player - a MINORITY of nations across the world who trade. By getting away from the suffocating and monstrously arrogant dictatorship known as the EU (... whose lawyer only this week encouraged us to understand that we could unilaterally ditch Brexit, if only we opted to !) ... we get to, instead, open ourselves up to trade with the GREATER MAJORITY of nations out there who want to do business with us.

    As matters stand, the UK's membership of the EU forbids us to enter into independent trade agreements with any of that bigger marketplace. That cannot be in the UK's long-term interests.

    Cheapness of goods, and trade generally ... you assume a lot. Deals NOT struck, are already being judged by you ? Seriously ? But in any case, even if you were making a valid point, you are still overlooking the massive contributions we make, annually, to EU coffers just because we are 'in their club'. Who's to say that, once we're freed of that obligation, the net balance won't be to our greater advantage ?

    As to the UK's ability to trade ... Pete, do you imagine that we've nothing to trade ? Does the EU, then, forever 'bale us out' as a 'charity', by supplying us with its goods, gaining no meaningful trade in return ??

    See ....

    https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/

    Read it for yourself.

    We have a workforce. Companies can (and have, in appreciable numbers) based factories here.

    And Pete ... swallow this fact, if you can. The UK are world leaders, and have been for a long time, in IT and telecommunications expertise. In this day and age of cyber warfare, cyber criminality ... the world would be much the poorer without our contributions. Our GCHQ complex in Cheltenham was, in times past, listening in to the old Soviet Union and sharing its findings with, not least, the US's Intelligence services and Government. Today, they're principally engaged in IT security activities, and the Western world in general still vitally needs their input.

    Aerial_of_GCHQ,_Cheltenham,_Gloucestershire,_England_24May2017_arp.jpg


    I suggest to you that a complex this extensive doesn't consist of people who've no other reason for existence than to sit around drinking tea all day ....

    ... and I also suggest that GCHQ's expansion into Manchester has a point to it ...

    https://www.governmenteuropa.eu/gchq...chester/86415/

    UK intelligence agency GCHQ will open a new intelligence and security facility in Manchester in 2019, as part of the UK’s wider counter-terror strategy.

    The new intelligence and security facility will work alongside the UK’s other intelligence agencies MI5 and MI6. The Manchester centre will join GCHQ’s main headquarters in Cheltenham, and additional offices in Bude and Scarborough.

    The announcement follows a number of recent plans to expand the UK’s counter-terror capabilities. This includes the creation of a National Cyber Security Centre, which opened in London last year, and the recent unveiling of a new chemical weapons defence centre to be established at Porton Down.

    What has GCHQ said about the new facility?

    Fleming said that Manchester was an ideal site for the new intelligence and security facility, in part because of the resilience and strength the city had shown in response to the terrorist bombing attack which took place there last year.

    He added that opening a new centre in Manchester will allow GCHQ to take advantage of a whole new pool of talented and technologically skilled workers, which he argued would be “vital to the future success” of the agency.
    So, Pete, don't underrate what we have to offer. You'd be a fool to do so.
    Last edited by Drummond; 12-12-2018 at 10:59 AM.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

  11. #115
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Wasilla, Alaska
    Posts
    13,988
    Thanks (Given)
    8494
    Thanks (Received)
    15307
    Likes (Given)
    3307
    Likes (Received)
    3829
    Piss Off (Given)
    27
    Piss Off (Received)
    4
    Mentioned
    201 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    21475184

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pete311 View Post
    I don't know what basis you have for such a wishful opinion. The UK will then be negotiating from a place of desperation and weakness. You think other countries are just going to rescue you, play fair and be nice to you? No, they will smell blood and wring out everything you have. The UK has no valuable resources! You think importing goods from the US is cheaper than uh the EU? Seriously? All just wishful thinking and it is unlikely to unfold as simply as you make it and if it doesn't then you've just made a very serious gamble on the selfish basis of wanting to be a true island in a global economy.

    Given your complete lack of knowledge of the country you actually live in and utter lack of common sense you've displayed, I think anything you 'think' about the UK and Brexit can be safely discarded out of hand.
    Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

  12. Thanks Drummond thanked this post
    Likes Drummond liked this post
  13. #116
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    6,314
    Thanks (Given)
    5
    Thanks (Received)
    354
    Likes (Given)
    36
    Likes (Received)
    131
    Piss Off (Given)
    0
    Piss Off (Received)
    63
    Mentioned
    145 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post

    So, Pete, don't underrate what we have to offer. You'd be a fool to do so.
    Exactly, it's a service based economy. The US doesn't need your technology or intel services. So what exactly could you offer us in trade?

  14. #117
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    South Wales, UK
    Posts
    11,895
    Thanks (Given)
    20722
    Thanks (Received)
    8222
    Likes (Given)
    2213
    Likes (Received)
    1128
    Piss Off (Given)
    5
    Piss Off (Received)
    0
    Mentioned
    164 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    19319416

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pete311 View Post
    Exactly, it's a service based economy. The US doesn't need your technology or intel services. So what exactly could you offer us in trade?
    I'm sure the US has a great technological lead of its own. Do you need our intel services ? I honestly don't know. Who's to say that the UK doesn't make advances of its own, which other powers such as yours don't interweave into yours ?

    I'm not at all sure that interdependence doesn't play a far more vital part in making progress than you imagine.

    Mull this one over ....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee

    Sir Timothy John Berners-Lee OM KBE FRS FREng FRSA FBCS (born 8 June 1955), also known as TimBL, is an English engineer and computer scientist, best known as the inventor of the World Wide Web ...
    So ... there's a lesson for you. Peoples' advances aren't limited to one country .. they DO interweave. Acknowledge the UK's leading role in this process ... why don't you ?

    As for what we offer you in trade, well ... ask Donald Trump. HE thinks there's a basis for lucrative trade, and this within his greater framework of an 'America First' trading environment !!

    Care to explain that one, Pete ?
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

  15. #118
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    6,314
    Thanks (Given)
    5
    Thanks (Received)
    354
    Likes (Given)
    36
    Likes (Received)
    131
    Piss Off (Given)
    0
    Piss Off (Received)
    63
    Mentioned
    145 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    I'm sure the US has a great technological lead of its own. Do you need our intel services ? I honestly don't know. Who's to say that the UK doesn't make advances of its own, which other powers such as yours don't interweave into yours ?

    I'm not at all sure that interdependence doesn't play a far more vital part in making progress than you imagine.

    Mull this one over ....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee



    So ... there's a lesson for you. Peoples' advances aren't limited to one country .. they DO interweave. Acknowledge the UK's leading role in this process ... why don't you ?

    As for what we offer you in trade, well ... ask Donald Trump. HE thinks there's a basis for lucrative trade, and this within his greater framework of an 'America First' trading environment !!

    Care to explain that one, Pete ?
    You are still basing the future of your country on wishful thinking. Do you know how trading works? You're going to offer us the WWW? We already got that thank you. What else you got?

  16. #119
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    The Republic of Texas
    Posts
    47,819
    Thanks (Given)
    34251
    Thanks (Received)
    26352
    Likes (Given)
    2315
    Likes (Received)
    9915
    Piss Off (Given)
    0
    Piss Off (Received)
    12
    Mentioned
    368 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    21475524

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pete311 View Post
    Exactly, it's a service based economy. The US doesn't need your technology or intel services. So what exactly could you offer us in trade?
    Another opportunity to f*ck the EU. That's a fair trade.

    Any bad day for socialism is a good day for the rest of the World
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

  17. Thanks Drummond thanked this post
    Likes Drummond liked this post
  18. #120
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    4,853
    Thanks (Given)
    960
    Thanks (Received)
    3749
    Likes (Given)
    535
    Likes (Received)
    854
    Piss Off (Given)
    0
    Piss Off (Received)
    0
    Mentioned
    50 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    17759692

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pete311 View Post
    You are still basing the future of your country on wishful thinking. Do you know how trading works? You're going to offer us the WWW? We already got that thank you. What else you got?
    Hmmmm.... it appears the biggest exports to the US from the UK are mechanical and pharmaceutical products ( worth 6.6 billion pounds) and cars ( worth 7.4 billion pounds): https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44802666

    Also: http://www.worldstopexports.com/unit...s-top-exports/

    Interesting stuff.

    I never did understand why any country would subvert it's own sovereignty for the sake of trade but I wasn't born in Europe either. Seems to me that the EU has not worked out so well for some countries (Greece and Italy for example).
    I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
    Thomas Jefferson


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Debate Policy - Political Forums