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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elessar View Post
    You try living with such an event and see how your philosophy works for you.

    First responders - Police, Firefighters, Ambulance Crews, City Workers - all perished
    when those towers collapsed. They put their lives on the line each time they
    deploy from their station.

    Forgive? NO! Forget? NO!
    What makes Noir's attitude all the more appalling is that he should be no stranger to understanding the effect terrorist attacks has on the community which suffers them.

    Northern Ireland is where Noir is from. It's a country that had sustained terrorism from the IRA.

    More recently, we in London had our '7/7' attack. Of course, that cannot be compared to the disgusting scope and nature of 9/11 ... however, 7/7 was nonetheless a terrorist incident, with people killed, maimed, and all the agony and trauma associated with a terrorist attack was there.

    My point is that Noir should know better than to hold the perspective that he does. Would Noir respond well to an American telling British people that it was better if emotion involved with 7/7 was 'forgotten', that said American preferred to converse about it so long as it was done minus emotion ??

    Disgusting. Be it over 7/7, be it over 9/11 ... disgusting.

    Noir, you REALLY need to rethink your attitude ... and for that matter, any element of judgementality you're applying.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Someone grieving is expected and in the most part uncontrollable - Someone still in grief many years after an event should be seeking help because that is not healthy for them, or those around them.

    Re: Examples like the holocaust, empathy is a separate and useful tool, that I do not think contradicts with what I am saying.
    What ??

    You're being judgmental about someone's extent of grief, or their right to grieve ?? By what conceivable right do YOU judge that a person still grieving 'should be seeking help' ?

    You talk of 'empathy'. Where is YOURS, TODAY, OVER WHAT NEW YORKERS AND AMERICANS SUFFERED ON 11TH SEPTEMBER 2001 ??

    And why are you REALLY so intent upon thinking that emotion should play so little a part in the anniversary of 9/11 ???
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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  5. #18
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    Default Today marks 17 years since the events of 9/11

    I think it is reasonable to consider that if someone is still grieving years after a death they are likely suffering from a prolonged depression, should seek help. If you consider that judgemental, fair enough.

    In any case I don’t have much more to add to the topic.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    @Jim Then maybe I can be more specific- what is your sentiment regarding “I’ll never forget”
    Forget what?
    I thought I was clear, but let me try again.

    Radical Islam was responsible for 9/11. I am now ever vigilant about radical Islam, which I truly wasn't "fully aware" to the extent prior to these events. I won't forget how the responses were from so many throughout the Islamic world, not all, but many many. And the fact is, with the most in-depth, as in years in the making, was shown that the radicals within Islam is a HUGE number. I won't ever forget that they were able to commit such acts on our soil. I won't forget that terrorism, within our lifetimes, is a major problem and the overwhelming majority of them come from within Islam. I'll never forget the amount of lives lost that day. I'll never forget the amount of people that showed up to lend assistance. I'll never forget the way Rudy stepped in and comforted NYC in a manner that was more than difficult at the time. I won't forget the way 350 million people suddenly all agreed, were all flying flags and all united over what happened & all agreed from the very early days forward that we would never forget. Never forget to trust but verify. Sleep with one eye open when you know your enemy.

    As I started alluding to up there, there was also a lot of good that came out of that day, and that should never be forgotten either. The folks that risked their lives to instantly help, and knowingly suck in that air. The police and firemen that jumped instantly prior to the buildings falling, and all of those that worked 24x7 to help retrieve their brothers/sisters in arms. Firemen from all over the entire nation came to lend assistance. Too many regular folks came to help and they started turning people away. The amount that the entire world donated to the various funds was incredible.

    There is just SO SO much to "never forget", both from the emotional angry side, as well as teary eyed pride in so many heroes.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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  8. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Someone grieving is expected and in the most part uncontrollable - Someone still in grief many years after an event should be seeking help because that is not healthy for them, or those around them.

    Re: Examples like the holocaust, empathy is a separate and useful tool, that I do not think contradicts with what I am saying.
    I have been grieving about the loss of my Mom since 2010. Yeah, it's gotten a tad easier, but I will never fully be over the grief. Sometimes memories will even draw the tears. Hell, it's Mom, those are memories and emotions, and I think that it's also healthy at times.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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  10. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    I think it is reasonable to consider that if someone is still grieving years after a death they are likely suffering from a prolonged depression, should seek help. If you consider that judgemental, fair enough.

    In any case I don’t have much more to add to the topic.
    There are thousands that are grieving over the loss of various loved ones on 9/11. It can cause a prolonged depression, but most folks can still function in such a manner. I think if it disables you, that's when you seek assistance. But to grieve, or be depressed or get a tear in the eye - whether a few months or 20 years down the road, I still think that's simply nature showing itself and human emotion. Personally, I would find it odd if someone were able to let go too easily.

    I DO understand your point, and that if it's an "issue" after many years, one should seek help or talk to a therapist. But I only think that's if it somehow disables the person still.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    There are thousands that are grieving over the loss of various loved ones on 9/11. It can cause a prolonged depression, but most folks can still function in such a manner. I think if it disables you, that's when you seek assistance. But to grieve, or be depressed or get a tear in the eye - whether a few months or 20 years down the road, I still think that's simply nature showing itself and human emotion. Personally, I would find it odd if someone were able to let go too easily.

    I DO understand your point, and that if it's an "issue" after many years, one should seek help or talk to a therapist. But I only think that's if it somehow disables the person still.
    For what it's worth, I think Noir is equating 'depression' (or his understanding of it) to American family members of 9/11 victims, as though this was all that was involved. But, it's not. There's the shock of the attack. The outrage felt over it. The immense trauma associated with it, as well as the grieving process itself. I don't feel that Noir is applying any understanding of any of that when he judges, as he does, that grieving family members - if still feeling that grief to any major extent - should 'seek help'.

    Functionality isn't necessarily involved. People have a right to feel what they do, without some judgmental Leftie coming along and pronouncing over what HE feels they 'need'.

    The real truth here, I think, is that Noir would rather see the emotional impact of 9/11 downgraded to a more 'PC-acceptable' level. Ultimately, he wants enmity towards the cause of it likewise downgraded.

    I for one - for whatever my view is actually worth - consider that totally unacceptable.

    If anything, today should remind us of what's still out there, meaning us all great harm.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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  14. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    There are thousands that are grieving over the loss of various loved ones on 9/11. It can cause a prolonged depression, but most folks can still function in such a manner. I think if it disables you, that's when you seek assistance. But to grieve, or be depressed or get a tear in the eye - whether a few months or 20 years down the road, I still think that's simply nature showing itself and human emotion. Personally, I would find it odd if someone were able to let go too easily.

    I DO understand your point, and that if it's an "issue" after many years, one should seek help or talk to a therapist. But I only think that's if it somehow disables the person still.
    There may be some slight confusion over the term “grief/grieving” I should probably cut the middle-man and just term it as “depression” as that may be more universally understood as expected (in the case of a death etc) but certainly not a healthy long-term state.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    There may be some slight confusion over the term “grief/grieving” I should probably cut the middle-man and just term it as “depression” as that may be more universally understood as expected (in the case of a death etc) but certainly not a healthy long-term state.
    I'm all too familiar with depression, unfortunately. I do think it helps in differentiating to a better extent, but even depressed people can lead full functioning lives. But all in all, if someone is "clinically" depressed, then I agree that some help very well may be needed.

    ....

    But back to the 17 years since 9/11. It just really sent me for a loop when I first read that this year as that sounds SO long ago, and I guess it is! And I hope the worst event on our soil - ever - will be taught and written properly and responsibly.

    And I do think a LOT of people had forgotten - in different ways, even though of course they remember the events. If that makes any sense.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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  17. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    There may be some slight confusion over the term “grief/grieving” I should probably cut the middle-man and just term it as “depression” as that may be more universally understood as expected (in the case of a death etc) but certainly not a healthy long-term state.
    What you miss is this. Islam was not a hydra that bit us, then died with its heads cut off. It was a hydra that bit us and we basically ignored its heads and then went about cutting of its tail. You think grieving is all that is involved but such is not the case. The hydra still lives and still actively bites us. And will do so until either we destroy it or else it destroys us!
    Are you so damn daft as to not understand this glaring truth-- that Islam exists only to destroy all that is- NOT A PART OF ISLAM!
    That attack was not some space aliens....
    It was then and still is now the work of a cult over a billion strong that seeks our total destruction. And yours too..
    But liberals are so blind they think appeasing Islam will spare them!-Idiots-- Islam spares only those that totally submit to be enslaved.
    You can not face up to my posts or defeat the glaring obvious truths that I present -thus you ignore me..
    I know what Islam has planned for my family after I am dead.
    I know that it is a murder cult that parades as a religion!
    Those grieving their losses are correct in doing so.
    As are we that understand someday this monster will truly have to be dealt with and likely that will involve many millions dying(WHEN THEY GET THEIR NUKES).
    Islam plans on forcing that day.. Some of us think past today..
    I am sick of idiots saying- but it wasnt Islam! When I know that it was... the bastards that did it were obeying commands from the Koran! According to their damn cult they did exactly what they were supposed to do..
    FFKK ISLAM..-Tyr
    Last edited by Tyr-Ziu Saxnot; 09-11-2018 at 11:12 AM.
    18 U.S. Code § 2381-Treason Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

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  19. #26
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    Here's some reasons as to why we say we "will never forget" - and why many still grieve today, both over individuals and our country.




    What an awesome truck and memorial! This is an 18 wheeler and I'm not even posting a lot of it!







    Some more heroes,taking a break some time after the buildings fell of course.



    A massive reason as to the "never forget". Whether working and living in the area as I was, or seeing it live on TV, or looking straight down 5th avenue, or seeing it while sitting in a cabin in Alaska! This kind of stuff gets etched in the mind, and you can only remember the amount of folks that had their lives snuffed out - due to Islamic terrorism.



    How a few celebrated and used their "freedoms" to speak their minds.





    Another memorial, so that no one forgetsm even at night, from miles and miles away.



    The USS New York, where much scrap metal was used in building her!!





    I'm only posting one of these. It's scary and something you will never forget. Thanks to Islamic terrorism, some of these folks had to decide to stand and burn to death, or just jump to their deaths as a better alternative.



    Some of the folks to NEVER FORGET who stood and waited for help they likely thought was coming, and them and the help went down with the building.





    And the amount of people that worked to service and help NYC, and willingly ran into those buildings and were on their way up to assist all of these poor souls. Police and firemen, so many of them lost that day. We will NEVER FORGET.



    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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  21. #27
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    We Brits are familiar with terrorism, terrorist acts, and the traumas associated with them.

    BUT, there are aspects of 9/11 - as Jim's pictures illustrate - that, because of not being American, I don't think we can properly identify with. People choosing to drop to their deaths rather than be roasted alive, for example.

    I don't think I have a complete enough comprehension to think myself qualified to pass any form of judgment on the full meaning of 9/11 to an American. To a considerable extent -- yes. Not FULLY so, however.

    I doubt very much that Noir can truthfully, accurately, claim any better for himself.

    In my view, Noir's attempts at judgmentality are made in error ... quite apart from any 'PC' imperative driving him.

    I can only say that I support, sympathise with, TRY to identify with, your remembrance of 9/11 today.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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  23. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    We Brits are familiar with terrorism, terrorist acts, and the traumas associated with them.

    BUT, there are aspects of 9/11 - as Jim's pictures illustrate - that, because of not being American, I don't think we can properly identify with. People choosing to drop to their deaths rather than be roasted alive, for example.

    I don't think I have a complete enough comprehension to think myself qualified to pass any form of judgment on the full meaning of 9/11 to an American. To a considerable extent -- yes. Not FULLY so, however.

    I doubt very much that Noir can truthfully, accurately, claim any better for himself.

    In my view, Noir's attempts at judgmentality are made in error ... quite apart from any 'PC' imperative driving him.

    I can only say that I support, sympathise with, TRY to identify with, your remembrance of 9/11 today.
    I'm sure everyone still has their stories, and still remembers exactly where they were that day, and at those moments.

    I was about 2 miles or so straight north of the towers. Because of CBS studios being in our lobby, they had like a 200 foot TV screen outside, which is where many gathered as it all unfolded, and then we all saw the 2nd plane hit the towers live. I was able to walk out like 50 feet to 5th avenue, because all the traffic more or less came to a stand still. While still far away, we easily saw the towers and all the smoke.

    Between trying to get a hold of my wife, which was futile as all the cells were down mostly, as the antennas were on top of the towers. Luckily, she was smart enough to walk to my building and found me and friends outside. Everyone panicked and went separate ways. I had to get my car out of the parking garage, and then sit in traffic and find the one way still open to get get out of the city, as they closed down all the crossings and so many highways in the area. Took forever to get out of the city and get home. It was one scary day for a tad! When planes first went by, right around when the 2nd plane hit, we thought for awhile we were kinda under attack, and would a plane crash elsewhere? Was a great feeling to get back home, until I turned on the TV and my computer and just read and read for days.

    For a lot of people, it's something that you more or less will always remember, and know all the details. And even more reason to continue saying "never forget". But this applies to folks on the west coast to the east coast - as it was for that first week, and the unity it brought.

    I remember quite a few threads over the years on this very discussion, and it's kinda crazy when you see how it affected everyone in different parts of the nation.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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    241 Marines and Sailors were murdered in Beirut by Islamic Jihadists, now called Hezbollah in 1983. Friends and acquaintances were lost. There's NO forgetting and there is NO forgiveness.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    This is at the chapel at Villanova University, remembering 15 alumni.



    This is in Connecticut, a memorial from the youngest of all the victims



    Directly in front of the Pentagon, right where the plane crashed.



    An eternal flame in Massachusetts, in memory of a girl Melissa, along with 92 other Massachusetts residents who died on 9/11.

    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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