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    Default The Bible was NEVER supposed to be taken literally

    As anyone who has studied ancient literature knows, the style of communication in those days was much different (in every culture, not just the mideast).

    The way the ancient Greeks defined literature was that it had to contain strong elements of both "mythos" and "logos." Mythos, of course, is where the word "myth" comes from, but the purpose of myths in those days was to convey some sort of deep meaning. Really just a way for people to make sense of what often seems like a chaotic life. Logos, by contrast, forms the root of our word "logic," and deals with practical considerations. The huge problem for religion today is that myth as a means of common communication has totally gone out of use. Now it's all based on logos.

    What happens when you try to read the Bible without understanding its mythos?

    ...consider the Creation Story in Genesis. Why would anyone think that it is a factual account of creation and insist that it must be factually, scientifically correct, never mind the actual data? It is because people have become fooled into thinking that there is only one kind of truth and knowledge, that which derives from logos, and this leads them to conclude that if they were to admit that the account of creation in Genesis is terrible science, they would have to deny to the Bible any possibility of being true. But if the Bible is false in this case, the whole thing can be called into question.

    Notice that there is an inverse to this conclusion that is no better, namely the denial of any validity whatever to the Genesis Creation Story since it is factually incorrect. Since there is only factual, logos-validity, this reasoning goes, and it is pretty clearly factually incorrect and not a scientifically supportable account, then it must be wrong-headed in every way, and we’re better off ignoring the whole thing. It’s the same mistake turned inside out.
    Source

    This is why Fundamentalism of all kinds works so poorly. Instead, all people need to recognize the myths in their faiths, and respect the myths in others.
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    Creationists are often accused of believing that the whole Bible should be taken literally. This is not so! Rather, the key to a correct understanding of any part of the Bible is to ascertain the intention of the author of the portion or book under discussion. This is not as difficult as it may seem, as the Bible obviously contains:

    *

    Poetry—as in the Psalms, where the repetition or parallelism of ideas is in accordance with Hebrew ideas of poetry, without the rhyme (parallelism of sound) and metre (parallelism of time) that are important parts of traditional English poetry. This, by the way, is the reason why the Psalms can be translated into other languages and still retain most of their literary appeal and poetic piquancy, while the elements of rhyme and metre are usually lost when traditional Western poetry is translated into other languages.
    *

    Parables—as in many of the sayings of Jesus, such as the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:3–23), which Jesus Himself clearly states to be a parable and about which He gives meanings for the various items, such as the seed and the soil.
    *

    Prophecy—as in the books of the last section of the Old Testament (Isaiah to Malachi).
    *

    Letters—as in the New Testament epistles written by Paul, Peter, John, and others.
    *

    Biography—as in the gospels.
    *

    Autobiography/testimony—as in the book of Acts where the author, Luke, after narrating the Apostle Paul’s conversion on the road to Damascus as a historical fact (Acts 9:1–19), then describes two further occasions when Paul included this conversion experience as part of his own personal testimony (Acts 22:1–21; 26:1–22).
    *

    Authentic historical facts—as in the books of 1 and 2 Kings, etc.

    Thus the author’s intention with respect to any book of the Bible is usually quite clear from the style and the content. Who then was the author of Genesis, and what intention is revealed by his style and the content of what he wrote?
    The author

    The Lord Jesus Himself and the gospel writers said that the Law was given by Moses (Mark 10:3; Luke 24:27; John 1:17), and the uniform tradition of the Jewish scribes and early Christian fathers, and the conclusion of conservative scholars to the present day, is that Genesis was written by Moses. This does not preclude the possibility that Moses had access to patriarchal records, preserved by being written on clay tablets and handed down from father to son via the line of Adam–Seth–Noah–Shem–Abraham–Isaac–Jacob, etc., as there are 11 verses in Genesis which read, ‘These are the generations [Hebrew: toledoth = ‘origins’ or by extension ‘record of the origins’] of … .’1 As these statements all come after the events they describe, and the events recorded in each division all took place before rather than after the death of the individuals so named, they may very well be subscripts or closing signatures, i.e. colophons, rather than superscripts or headings. If this is so, the most likely explanation of them is that Adam, Noah, Shem, and the others each wrote down an account of the events which occurred in his lifetime, and Moses, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, selected and compiled these, along with his own comments, into the book we now know as Genesis2 (see also Did Moses really write Genesis?).

    Chapters 12–50 of Genesis were very clearly written as authentic history, as they describe the lives of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and his 12 sons who were the ancestral heads of the 12 tribes of Israel. The Jewish people, from earliest biblical times to the present day, have always regarded this portion of Genesis as the true record of their nation’s history.

    So what about the first 11 chapters of Genesis, which are our main concern, as these are the ones that have incurred the most criticism from modern scholars, scientists, and sceptics?
    Genesis 1–11
    Are any of these chapters poetry?

    To answer this question we need to examine in a little more depth just what is involved in the parallelism of ideas that constitutes Hebrew poetry.

    Let us consider Psalm 1:1, which reads as follows: ‘Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.’ Here we see triple parallelism in the nouns and verbs used (reading downwards in the following scheme):
    walketh counsel ungodly
    standeth way sinners
    sitteth seat scornful

    As well as this overt parallelism, there is also a covert or subtle progression of meaning. In the first column, ‘walketh’ suggests short-term acquaintance, ‘standeth’ implies readiness to discuss, and ‘sitteth’ speaks of long-term involvement. In the second column, ‘counsel’ betokens general advice, ‘way’ indicates a chosen course of action, and ‘seat’ signifies a set condition of mind. In the third column, ‘ungodly’ describes the negatively wicked, ‘sinner’ characterizes the positively wicked, and ‘scornful’ portrays the contemptuously wicked.

    Other types of Hebrew poetry include contrastive parallelism, as in Proverbs 27:6, ‘Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful’, and completive parallelism, as in Psalm 46:1, ‘God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in time of need.’3.

    And so we return to our question. Are any of the first 11 chapters of Genesis poetry?

    Answer: No, because these chapters do not contain information or invocation in any of the forms of Hebrew poetry, in either overt or covert form, and because Hebrew scholars of substance are agreed that this is so (see below).

    Note: There certainly is repetition in Genesis chapter 1, e.g. ‘And God said …’ occurs 10 times; ‘and God saw that it was good/very good’ seven times; ‘after his/their kind’ 10 times; ‘And the evening and the morning were the … day’ six times. However, these repetitions have none of the poetic forms discussed above; rather they are statements of fact and thus a record of what happened, and possibly for emphasis—to indicate the importance of the words repeated.
    Are any of these chapters parables?

    No, because when Jesus told a parable He either said it was a parable, or He introduced it with a simile, so making it plain to the hearers that it was a parable, as on the many occasions when He said, ‘The kingdom of heaven is like … .’ No such claim is made or style used by the author of Genesis 1–11.
    Are any of these chapters prophecy?

    Not in their full context, although two promises of God are prophetic in the sense that their fulfilment would be seen in the future. One of these is Genesis 3:15, which was the pronouncement by God to the serpent (Satan) in metaphorical form: ‘And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.’ (NASB). Many have interpreted the ‘seed’ in this verse as the Messiah, including most evangelicals and even the Jewish Targums4 hence the Talmudic expression ‘heels of the Messiah’5. The Messiah would suffer wounds to His feet (on the Cross), but would completely destroy Satan’s power. This verse also hints at the virginal conception, as the Messiah is called the seed of the woman, contrary to the normal biblical practice of naming the father rather than the mother of a child (cf. Genesis chapters 5 and 11, 1 Chronicles chapters 1–9, Matthew chapter 1, Luke 3:23–38).

    The other is Genesis 8:21–22 and 9:11–17,

    ‘And the LORD said in His heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake … and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.’
    More.
    “… the greatest detractor from high performance is fear: fear that you are not prepared, fear that you are in over your head, fear that you are not worthy, and ultimately, fear of failure. If you can eliminate that fear—not through arrogance or just wishing difficulties away, but through hard work and preparation—you will put yourself in an incredibly powerful position to take on the challenges you face" - Pete Carroll.

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    How would a nonbeliever of no faith be able to tell believers how to take the Bible.

    Kind of like a janitor lecturing about rocket science.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pale Rider View Post
    How would a nonbeliever of no faith be able to tell believers how to take the Bible.

    Kind of like a janitor lecturing about rocket science.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pale Rider View Post
    How would a nonbeliever of no faith be able to tell believers how to take the Bible.

    Kind of like a janitor lecturing about rocket science.
    The essay about mythos and logos in religion is from Karen Armstrong's book Battle for God. Armstrong is an ex-nun.
    If you're worth less than $5 million and you vote for McCain, you're a loser.

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    U no y they call 'em nuns, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by typomaniac View Post
    Armstrong is an ex-nun.
    Like I said...

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    By your "logic," I'm not able to tell you that Alice in Wonderland was a satire about the British government unless I actually believe the events in the book literally happened.
    If you're worth less than $5 million and you vote for McCain, you're a loser.

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    Quote Originally Posted by typomaniac View Post


    By your "logic," I'm not able to tell you that Alice in Wonderland was a satire about the British government unless I actually believe the events in the book literally happened.
    They did. And if it happened to me, it could happen to you. suddenly. Without warning.

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    As anyone who has studied ancient literature knows, the style of communication in those days was much different (in every culture, not just the mideast).
    if you have in fact studied ancient literature, you should be aware that there is not ONE style of communication involved....the scriptures are an excellant example of that.....you have narrative, letters, poetry, apocrypha, proverbs. etc.......each with it's own style and characteristics......

    personally, I think that what the Bible intends to communicate was intended to be taken literally, but there is a responsibility on the part of the reader to be intelligent about what that communication is.....

    when Sanberg wrote "the fog crept in on little cat feet" he was communicating something about fog that he wanted taken literally, but it wasn't that fog had four legs....

    there are those who say they take everything in the scriptures literally, but no one does......when it says the cattle on a thousand hills sing the praise of God, it isn't taken to mean that the cattle on Hill 1001 weren't singing....

    that being said....use your brain when reading the scriptures.....

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    The Power of Myth.....Joseph Campbell

    See it, regardless of your beliefs, it may change them.
    UNITED STATES ARMY AVIATION

    Above the Best

    Why the Hell should I have to press “1” for ENGLISH?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. P View Post
    The Power of Myth.....Joseph Campbell

    See it, regardless of your beliefs, it may change them.
    Read the book years ago. Very interesting and well thought out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pale Rider View Post
    How would a nonbeliever of no faith be able to tell believers how to take the Bible.

    Kind of like a janitor lecturing about rocket science.
    Rocket science...? Religion is not rocket science, which is based upon scientific principles. It is, however, a structure of allegory and mythology used to instill moral values in early societies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostmodernProphet View Post

    that being said....use your brain when reading the scriptures.....
    Calling people to be responsible for what they read, and applying context and common-sense makes Scripture harder to ridicule for those whose hearts are hard, or are simply afraid of truth.
    “… the greatest detractor from high performance is fear: fear that you are not prepared, fear that you are in over your head, fear that you are not worthy, and ultimately, fear of failure. If you can eliminate that fear—not through arrogance or just wishing difficulties away, but through hard work and preparation—you will put yourself in an incredibly powerful position to take on the challenges you face" - Pete Carroll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostmodernProphet View Post
    if you have in fact studied ancient literature, you should be aware that there is not ONE style of communication involved....the scriptures are an excellant example of that.....you have narrative, letters, poetry, apocrypha, proverbs. etc.......each with it's own style and characteristics......

    personally, I think that what the Bible intends to communicate was intended to be taken literally, but there is a responsibility on the part of the reader to be intelligent about what that communication is.....

    when Sanberg wrote "the fog crept in on little cat feet" he was communicating something about fog that he wanted taken literally, but it wasn't that fog had four legs....

    there are those who say they take everything in the scriptures literally, but no one does......when it says the cattle on a thousand hills sing the praise of God, it isn't taken to mean that the cattle on Hill 1001 weren't singing....

    that being said....use your brain when reading the scriptures.....
    Earlier societies understood the distinction between mythos and logos as presented in the Bible. With that understanding also cam the understanding that the Bible was allegorical in nature and not the literal truth at all.

    With the Reformation and the new burgeoning of scientific inquiry, to this present day, mythos no longer maintains the equal footing it once had as logos has eclipsed it. Hence we see the attempts of religious fundamentalists of all stripes attempting to frame the allegory of their given doctrines into a strictly rational framework. But one may as well try to hold back the tides with one's hands. The subjective, internal experiences of a religion will not fit neatly into the boxes rationality and reason demand. We can attempt to describe religious experience, as was done in the Torah, the Bible, the Koran and other religious treatises, but given its subjective nature that description will be of a general and non-specific nature. The experiences with be unique to each individual.

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