Notre Dame - Paris: It burns :(

[Kathianne]

None of us know what happened to start the fire. One thing that we do know is the structure is over 800 years old and it's skeleton was made of wood-that is 800 years old:















I certainly wouldn't discount arson/terrorism. Then again, it seems that the 'attic' was checked twice a day for many, many years. Fire has always been a concern, the wood is that old. Terror groups would be prone to claiming credit for this one, so if it were terrorism as a root cause, I doubt it was set up by a group, but rather an actor or a few.

However, until there's more evidence, I don't see any reason to argue that it is or isn't more than what is being reported. The French have been more open regarding terror attacks than most, including IMO, the U.S.

[CSM]

I am willing to bet they will have problems finding any trees big enough to replace those beams. Old growth forests with trees that big (the size of those beams!) are rare these days.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I am willing to bet they will have problems finding any trees big enough to replace those beams. Old growth forests with trees that big (the size of those beams!) are rare these days.

I was thinking the same thing when seeing those pics.
They can likely get them from Germany. As to my knowledge it still has some old growth forests with huge trees.
But costs will definitely be very high per beam., methinks.. -Tyr

[CSM]

I was thinking the same thing when seeing those pics.
They can likely get them from Germany. As to my knowledge it still has some old growth forests with huge trees.
But costs will definitely be very high per beam., methinks.. -Tyr

I don't know about Germany. Most of Europe was pretty well devastated after two world wars including the forests. Siberia maybe? Obviously have to be hardwood like elm or oak too and a lot of it. I am not sure they could use steel or aluminum either... I am not a civil engineer so what the heck do I know.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I don't know about Germany. Most of Europe was pretty well devastated after two world wars including the forests. Siberia maybe? Obviously have to be hardwood like elm or oak too and a lot of it. I am not sure they could use steel or aluminum either... I am not a civil engineer so what the heck do I know.

You are correct. So much devastation due to heavy artillery fire but some areas still exist that were virtually untouched.
I do remember that the Hurtgen Forest was pounded very hard during the extremely bloody, Battle of the Hurtgen Forest in WW2 , -Tyr

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle...BCrtgen_Forest

The Battle of Hürtgen Forest (German: Schlacht im Hürtgenwald) was a series of fierce battles fought from 19 September to 16 December 1944 between American and German forces on the Western Front during World War II in the Hürtgen Forest, a 140 km2 (54 sq mi) area about 5 km (3.1 mi) east of the Belgian–German border.[1] It was the longest battle on German ground during World War II, and is the longest single battle the U.S. Army has ever fought.[7]

Generalfeldmarschall Walter Model intended to bring the Allied thrust to a standstill. While he interfered less in the day-to-day movements of units than at the Battle of Arnhem, he still kept himself fully informed on the situation, slowing the Allies' progress, inflicting heavy casualties and taking full advantage of the fortifications the Germans called the Westwall, better known to the Allies as the Siegfried Line. The Hürtgen Forest cost the U.S. First Army at least 33,000 killed and wounded, including both combat and non-combat losses, with upper estimate at 55,000; German casualties were 28,000. The city of Aachen in the north eventually fell on 22 October at high cost to the U.S. Ninth Army, but they failed to cross the Rur or wrest control of its dams from the Germans. The battle was so costly that it has been described as an Allied "defeat of the first magnitude," with specific credit given to Model.[8][9]:391

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https://www.iucn.org/content/germany...t-wild-forests

Germany’s last wild forests
Mon, 12 Dec 2011
Ancient Beech Forests of Germany, World Heritage site

Beech forest surrounding kettle-hole mire in Serrahn, Ancient Beech Forests of Germany
Background

The European beech (Fagus sylvatica) is one of the most important forest trees in Central Europe, constituting forests that once covered 40% of Europe. The serial site Ancient Beech Forests (ABF) of Germany, which was inscribed on the World Heritage list in 2011 as an extension to the site Primeval Beech Forests (PBF) of the Carpathians, protects some of the most beautiful and pristine of these forests.

The ABF site combines five component parts in the northern half of the Federal Republic of Germany that are representative of the colline-submontane (Kellerwald, Hainich) and planar (Serrahn, Grumsin, Jasmund) altitudinal zones: Kellerwald in the land Hessen, Hainich in Thuringia, Serran and Jasmund in Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania as well as Grumsin in Brandenburg.

The PBF of the Carpathians, which is a serial property as well, includes some of the oldest beech forests with the greatest amount of biodiversity because they were the first to return after the retreat of forests during the last glacial period. The five German sites are much younger than the ones in the Carpathian. They are not “primeval”, but have small (5-50 hectares) primeval segments within them that have remained free from exploitation. The German sites are the best conserved, most natural and closest to beech-dominant primary forest sites remaining in Germany and have not been exploited for many decades and in some parts, over a century. They represent examples of on-going post-glacial biological and ecological evolution of terrestrial ecosystems and are indispensable to understanding how one species, the European beech, came to absolute dominance across a variety of environmental conditions.

All of the individual site components are surrounded by larger forested buffer zones and lie within larger national parks or biosphere reserves. They are subject to national law and are governed by the respective länder, with varying percentages of land under private ownership.

Hainich National Park, Kellerwald National Park and Jasmund National Park are managed as Category II protected areas according to the IUCN Protected Area Management Categories, whereas Grumsiner Forst and Grosser und Kleiner Serrahn Nature Reserve are Category IV protected areas.


View images of the World Heritage site
Size and Location

The component parts of the site are Jasmund and Serrahn, in Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania; Grumsin in Brandenburg, Hainich in Thuringia, and Kellerwald in Hessen. They are distributed from the low mountains to the Baltic Sea. The other part of the serial World Heritage Site, the Primeval Beech Forests of the Carpathians, is located along the common boundary of Slovakia and Ukraine and is comprised of ten serial components.

The German sites cover a total of about 4,400 hectares, with buffer zones adding up to about 13,700 hectares. The World Heritage property PBF of the Carpatians extends to a size of almost 30,000 hectares, with buffer zones covering 48,700 hectares.


Flora and Fauna

The 11 species of the genus Fagus (beech) are restricted to the northern hemisphere – they are found only in the temperate nemoral zone of eastern North America, Europe, and Asia.

The European or copper beech (Fagus sylvatica L.) is not found outside of Europe and west Asia. The European beech represents the main climax tree species in the temperate zone of Central Europe and historically is a significant forest constituent in an area extending from the north of Spain and the south of England and Sweden, to the east of Poland, the Carpathian Arc and south of the Balkan and Apennine peninsulas.

Primary European temperate forests are rare, due to their long history of continuous exploitation by humans. Forests have long been used both directly for wood products and fuel, and indirectly through conversion to agriculture and settlement, as population increased. For all beech species only small refugia of undisturbed locations persist today and for more than half of the species it is even unclear whether there are any undisturbed areas remaining. Germany, being in the centre of the natural distribution of this forest type and having some of the largest areas of this forest type left, has a globally important role in the conservation of European beech forest ecosystems.

[Elessar]

I am willing to bet they will have problems finding any trees big enough to replace those beams. Old growth forests with trees that big (the size of those beams!) are rare these days.

I was thinking the same thing when seeing those pics.
They can likely get them from Germany. As to my knowledge it still has some old growth forests with huge trees.
But costs will definitely be very high per beam., methinks.. -Tyr

Douglas Fir trees from Oregon or Washington would fit the bill. They grow to over 250 feet, and that
is not just old growth either.

Import costs would be substantial, but with donations pouring in, could be alleviated.

[STTAB]

I don't know about Germany. Most of Europe was pretty well devastated after two world wars including the forests. Siberia maybe? Obviously have to be hardwood like elm or oak too and a lot of it. I am not sure they could use steel or aluminum either... I am not a civil engineer so what the heck do I know.

My bet is they will not use structural wood.

[jimnyc]

Targeting requires intent, which I can only appeal to not have. Regardless of intent though if it’s something you and Jim are both seeing then I’m going wrong somewhere, and will be deliberate in responding less.

Stop being dramatic. I explained 2 times what I "thought" I saw. You have now explained yourself twice. If there's no intent and I was wrong, then continue on. But stating you will post less isn't much different than those announcing their plans to leave.

And just maybe, if you read what we wrote, maybe you will just take a peek at what you write at times and also continue on. Someone telling you what they think they see from your posting isn't telling you to leave or post less.

Why you can't respond as I did, explain yourself as you did, and then continue on, is beyond me. Folks are critiqued here daily, it doesn't mean folks need to leave or post less. But if you think deliberately posting less is the answer - so be it. Makes no sense. But to each their own.

[jimnyc]

I still haven't seen any evidence of anything other than a shitty fire, no signs of arson or terrorism. But we're also at the mercy of investigators and authorities.

I think the muslims would WANT to perform such acts, and I think far too many are thrilled and celebrating these events, but that doesn't make them guilty of this particular fire.

Add in their past talk of desires, it's quite easy to see why folks are suspect of the fire and them. Seeing ANYONE celebrate such things is disgusting. And now, I wouldn't be surprised if they were to start targeting other houses of worship. Oh wait, they have already been doing that.

Sadly, someone went into St. Patrick's Cathedral in NYC yesterday with cans of gas and lighter fluid.

[CSM]

I still haven't seen any evidence of anything other than a shitty fire, no signs of arson or terrorism. But we're also at the mercy of investigators and authorities.

I think the muslims would WANT to perform such acts, and I think far too many are thrilled and celebrating these events, but that doesn't make them guilty of this particular fire.

Add in their past talk of desires, it's quite easy to see why folks are suspect of the fire and them. Seeing ANYONE celebrate such things is disgusting. And now, I wouldn't be surprised if they were to start targeting other houses of worship. Oh wait, they have already been doing that.

Sadly, someone went into St. Patrick's Cathedral in NYC yesterday with cans of gas and lighter fluid.

You can bet your last nickel that if it had been a terrorist act, some organization would be claiming responsibility for it by now. I am surprised none have claimed such even if they did not do it.

[jimnyc]

You can bet your last nickel that if it had been a terrorist act, some organization would be claiming responsibility for it by now. I am surprised none have claimed such even if they did not do it.

I agree. Isis and Al Qaeda groups are celebrating the fire, but have not taken credit for it.

[STTAB]

I still haven't seen any evidence of anything other than a shitty fire, no signs of arson or terrorism. But we're also at the mercy of investigators and authorities.

I think the muslims would WANT to perform such acts, and I think far too many are thrilled and celebrating these events, but that doesn't make them guilty of this particular fire.

Add in their past talk of desires, it's quite easy to see why folks are suspect of the fire and them. Seeing ANYONE celebrate such things is disgusting. And now, I wouldn't be surprised if they were to start targeting other houses of worship. Oh wait, they have already been doing that.

Sadly, someone went into St. Patrick's Cathedral in NYC yesterday with cans of gas and lighter fluid.

And you barely heard about it. Now , imagine if someone had been arrested for such inside a mosque. It would be headline news around the world.

[LongTermGuy]

You can bet your last nickel that if it had been a terrorist act, some organization would be claiming responsibility for it by now. I am surprised none have claimed such even if they did not do it.

"Something like this"... NO Bragging needed (or wanted) from the terrorist ...it`s done and appears they are smelling like roses for now....The terrorist are evolving ...why bring unneeded heat on themselves and slow down the agenda......................................

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Maybe the muslims have decided "taking credit for it" isn't what they should do at this point in time. Maybe they're getting smart and don't want the attention. IDK. Maybe they have but it's being scrubbed. Obviously people here believe differently.

We don't have a single shred of evidence it was an accident either, other than they say it was, and did even before the fire was out. How they pulled that deduction off so fast I'll never know. They must be clairvoyant. They appeared to be in a real big hurry to declare it accidental. Why? But after seeing the unidentified person that certainly appears to be a muslim walking on the cat walk after the fire had started and the building was supposedly evacuated, and then the other mysterious person up on the roof scaffolding that also does not appear to be a worker making flashes of light happen, who also hasn't been identified, right before the fire started, what was he doing? That's why I believe it was started. The chances of a fire starting all by itself, little to none. The chances that a worker accidentally starts a fire by doing something so CARELESSLY to cause enough heat to ignite a fire and it goes unnoticed, again, you'd have to be one ignorant worker, and I don't believe they hired a bunch of careless, ignorant people to work on one of the worlds greatest structures. The chances that the fire was started, like ten other churches in the area just recently, and like the nut case just tried to do in NYC, and has been happening all over the world at an astronomical rate, very good in my opinion. I'd say there's more evidence that points to it was started than it was an accident, which basically there's none.

So I believe it was started, and until I hear and see proof of what this accident was and hear from a worker that he started it by doing this or that, I'll continue to believe it was started.

[LongTermGuy]

Were the French NOT Thinking?