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  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by STTAB View Post
    I don't believe you've misjudged my logic. I believe you've misunderstood my words. No, I do not believe word alone can be treasonous. That's why I differentiated, dopes like Maxine Waters and her "inpeach 45" since literally the day he was elected, they are just dopes. Not traitors.

    But people like Adam Schiff who have access to classified material and are lying about it to other members of Congress and to the American people in a blatant attempt to dislodge a duly elected President, who pretty openly misused our justice system and our intelligence community to portray the same President as a traitor to this country, yeah that's treasonous in my book.

    And I don't give one damn that it's liberals and or that it's Trump. If conservatives had done the same to Obama I'd be screaming about treason at the top of my lungs.

    Their actions, not their words, are treasonous they embolden our enemies. We know this is true just by watching our enemies. They love what's going on.
    Lying to Congress, under oath is a crime. Just lying seems to be expected behavior from elected officials. Assuming he misused the justice system, intelligence community, what crimes would those be? Still seems this line of reasoning may be worthy of accusation of crime, but not treason. Misuse of office perhaps? In this case it seems to me that the term 'treason' holds about as much water as using it against Obama for 'being an Islamic, non-birth American,' Saw a lot of that back when and from a few even in present time.
    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    And again, you have the right to your opinion. If those things come to pass, which they may do, than the who 'experiment' is over and done.

    BTW, attempts to say I think both sides are at the same point is ridiculous. The only reason I have to say that so often is that seems to be a favorite logical fallacy in response to any disagreements with the majority here.

    Once again, while my chosen positions align more with one side, that side no longer has the goals, methods, nor values in many ways that I can go along with. The other side? Offers nothing that aligns with my positions.
    If this is about being "for" something, I don't think I'm "for" any political party, the bureaucracy or the Government that created them. I expect none of the above to do anything for me except by coincidence.

    Anyone who is deluding themselves into thinking we don't already live in a socialist Hell needs to reexamine the cookie cutter car they drive to their cookie cutter job and back to their cookie cutter home with groceries from the cookie cutter store bought from their cookie cutter paycheck. Or their children rolling off to a cookie cutter school to learn the same nothing (as far as I can see) except adherence to the cookie cutter society and its cookie cutter rules. Got to educate those future taxpayers on how to pay their taxes.

    We're all "free"? When and where is this? I tried to think of a single thing I do that isn't somehow controlled by someone else's rules. Suicide is all I can come up with. And they so can't stand not being control even THAT is outlawed. Like that particular law means anything

    Perhaps you can point out where I am wrong about some of these "freedoms" and/or "Rights". I can't even go to the bathroom without a government approved toilet in my cookie cutter house.

    So, I'm really having a hard time getting up for the arguments anymore. I'm just against anything making it worse.
    My quota of bullshit cop outs from closed minds is full today, Tomorrow's not looking good for you either.

  3. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    If this is about being "for" something, I don't think I'm "for" any political party, the bureaucracy or the Government that created them. I expect none of the above to do anything for me except by coincidence.

    Anyone who is deluding themselves into thinking we don't already live in a socialist Hell needs to reexamine the cookie cutter car they drive to their cookie cutter job and back to their cookie cutter home with groceries from the cookie cutter store bought from their cookie cutter paycheck. Or their children rolling off to a cookie cutter school to learn the same nothing (as far as I can see) except adherence to the cookie cutter society and its cookie cutter rules. Got to educate those future taxpayers on how to pay their taxes.

    We're all "free"? When and where is this? I tried to think of a single thing I do that isn't somehow controlled by someone else's rules. Suicide is all I can come up with. And they so can't stand not being control even THAT is outlawed. Like that particular law means anything

    Perhaps you can point out where I am wrong about some of these "freedoms" and/or "Rights". I can't even go to the bathroom without a government approved toilet in my cookie cutter house.

    So, I'm really having a hard time getting up for the arguments anymore. I'm just against anything making it worse.
    Well that was certainly uplifting. You make me seem like Susie Sunshine, thanks for that!
    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



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  5. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    Lying to Congress, under oath is a crime. Just lying seems to be expected behavior from elected officials. Assuming he misused the justice system, intelligence community, what crimes would those be? Still seems this line of reasoning may be worthy of accusation of crime, but not treason. Misuse of office perhaps? In this case it seems to me that the term 'treason' holds about as much water as using it against Obama for 'being an Islamic, non-birth American,' Saw a lot of that back when and from a few even in present time.
    This is why I said I realize it's a fine line one must determine when something actually gives aid and comfort to an enemy. You seem to believe it must be material aid and or comfort. I think it can just be the comfort of knowing some within the government are fighting the government itself as much as you are. Just a difference of opinion.

    As for Congress lying to us. LOL I actually asked that same question. If Democrats believe Trump is a liar and that it is so dangerous, why don't they pass a law making it illegal for elected officials to lie to the American people. I think we all know the answer to that.

  6. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by STTAB View Post
    This is why I said I realize it's a fine line one must determine when something actually gives aid and comfort to an enemy. You seem to believe it must be material aid and or comfort. I think it can just be the comfort of knowing some within the government are fighting the government itself as much as you are. Just a difference of opinion.

    As for Congress lying to us. LOL I actually asked that same question. If Democrats believe Trump is a liar and that it is so dangerous, why don't they pass a law making it illegal for elected officials to lie to the American people. I think we all know the answer to that.

    Here's my take, at least in the US we have a legacy of not calling something 'treason' when it can be something else. There were good reasons that the framers chose to define treason and make it very hard to prosecute. Seems to me that like 'impeachment' both sides now want to make these common charges/remedies. Like I've been saying, we're coming undone.
    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



  7. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    Here's my take, at least in the US we have a legacy of not calling something 'treason' when it can be something else. There were good reasons that the framers chose to define treason and make it very hard to prosecute. Seems to me that like 'impeachment' both sides now want to make these common charges/remedies. Like I've been saying, we're coming undone.
    I'm the one who brought that up in this thread LOL. I just think the Dems in Congress have crossed the line

    And I believe they are doing more that we don't even know about. Yes at this point I think the Dems would "collude" with Iran if they thought they could force Trump into doing something stupid that might cost him reelection. They are that reckless and that power hungry.

  8. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by STTAB View Post
    I'm the one who brought that up in this thread LOL. I just think the Dems in Congress have crossed the line

    And I believe they are doing more that we don't even know about. Yes at this point I think the Dems would "collude" with Iran if they thought they could force Trump into doing something stupid that might cost him reelection. They are that reckless and that power hungry.
    Good for you, then why would you do what you're accusing others of? Lots of people cross lines, even politicians. May be a crime, but not treason. EVEN IF they are for open borders and England like gun control/banishment laws. Doesn't mean you go along with them; doesn't mean not to keep up the arguments and vote against them; just means, Don't be using hyperbole, it only distracts from the argument you are making.
    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



  9. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    Good for you, then why would you do what you're accusing others of? Lots of people cross lines, even politicians. May be a crime, but not treason. EVEN IF they are for open borders and England like gun control/banishment laws. Doesn't mean you go along with them; doesn't mean not to keep up the arguments and vote against them; just means, Don't be using hyperbole, it only distracts from the argument you are making.
    I'm not making that argument. I am simply following the law. What some Democrats in Congress are doing does give aid and comfort to enemies of our country. That is the VERY definition of treason in our COTUS.

    If you rob a bank that isn't treason, but if you rob a bank and give the money to terrorists, that IS treason IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STTAB View Post
    I'm not making that argument. I am simply following the law. What some Democrats in Congress are doing does give aid and comfort to enemies of our country. That is the VERY definition of treason in our COTUS.

    If you rob a bank that isn't treason, but if you rob a bank and give the money to terrorists, that IS treason IMO.
    Just like those you criticize, you are using your opinion of something as justification, that certainly falls under the first amendment.
    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    Just like those you criticize, you are using your opinion of something as justification, that certainly falls under the first amendment.
    Giving aid and comfort to an enemy of this country certainly does NOT fall within the First Amendment Kath. In fact it is expressly called TREASON in Article 3 of the COTUS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STTAB View Post
    Giving aid and comfort to an enemy of this country certainly does NOT fall within the First Amendment Kath. In fact it is expressly called TREASON in Article 3 of the COTUS.

    Calling something 'aid and comfort' does not make it so, it's you defining something based upon your opinion.
    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



  13. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    Calling something 'aid and comfort' does not make it so, it's you defining something based upon your opinion.
    Therein lies THE problem.

    The "usual" disclaimer: My comment is not about you, but it IS about the response you give. Your statement above is THE reason the left/Dems are getting away with treason among other assorted crimes. No laws specifically state they can't be uncivilized a-holes either, and they play that to the hilt. What is happening and they are doing is obvious. And I know YOU know it.

    It is not "opinion" what they are doing. And when I say that, I'm not going to restate the list of crap. It's already here It goes back to the heart of my argument from the beginning. We're being wordsmithed out of a country. These boneheads are using the Constitution, and what it does and does not say, to dismantle the Constitution.

    I'm sorry, but THAT is THE point where if the greater good requires one to break the law to preserve it in the end, then that is what should be done rather than watch it be destroyed one word at a time by people who have no idea what they are doing, even to themselves ultimately.

    I get principle. Got plenty of those antiquated notions I like to stand on. I can't stand on them much if my "Right" to do so, even if only on paper, is taken away. Then, we won't even be allowed to do what we are doing now and discuss it. The decision will be made for us.

    If tearing down the US Constitution is the goal, by WHATEVER means, I consider it treason. I consider those doing so unamerican and traitors. I would have half if not more of them in jail. I most certainly would not watch them walking out of my living room with the TV, sofa, etc while arguing the definition of ownership.
    My quota of bullshit cop outs from closed minds is full today, Tomorrow's not looking good for you either.

  14. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    Therein lies THE problem.

    The "usual" disclaimer: My comment is not about you, but it IS about the response you give. Your statement above is THE reason the left/Dems are getting away with treason among other assorted crimes. No laws specifically state they can't be uncivilized a-holes either, and they play that to the hilt. What is happening and they are doing is obvious. And I know YOU know it.

    It is not "opinion" what they are doing. And when I say that, I'm not going to restate the list of crap. It's already here It goes back to the heart of my argument from the beginning. We're being wordsmithed out of a country. These boneheads are using the Constitution, and what it does and does not say, to dismantle the Constitution.

    I'm sorry, but THAT is THE point where if the greater good requires one to break the law to preserve it in the end, then that is what should be done rather than watch it be destroyed one word at a time by people who have no idea what they are doing, even to themselves ultimately.

    I get principle. Got plenty of those antiquated notions I like to stand on. I can't stand on them much if my "Right" to do so, even if only on paper, is taken away. Then, we won't even be allowed to do what we are doing now and discuss it. The decision will be made for us.

    If tearing down the US Constitution is the goal, by WHATEVER means, I consider it treason. I consider those doing so unamerican and traitors. I would have half if not more of them in jail. I most certainly would not watch them walking out of my living room with the TV, sofa, etc while arguing the definition of ownership.

    We disagree. Again, it will be awhile before there's any real evidence of where we're going. If I'm correct, there will be a different system in force-however that comes about. If you are correct, there will be some sort of final battle, violent or not, and there will a restoration or something else. (Not sure how there would be a restoration though, since neither side seems to want the current system).
    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



  15. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    Therein lies THE problem.

    The "usual" disclaimer: My comment is not about you, but it IS about the response you give. Your statement above is THE reason the left/Dems are getting away with treason among other assorted crimes. No laws specifically state they can't be uncivilized a-holes either, and they play that to the hilt. What is happening and they are doing is obvious. And I know YOU know it.

    It is not "opinion" what they are doing. And when I say that, I'm not going to restate the list of crap. It's already here It goes back to the heart of my argument from the beginning. We're being wordsmithed out of a country. These boneheads are using the Constitution, and what it does and does not say, to dismantle the Constitution.

    I'm sorry, but THAT is THE point where if the greater good requires one to break the law to preserve it in the end, then that is what should be done rather than watch it be destroyed one word at a time by people who have no idea what they are doing, even to themselves ultimately.

    I get principle. Got plenty of those antiquated notions I like to stand on. I can't stand on them much if my "Right" to do so, even if only on paper, is taken away. Then, we won't even be allowed to do what we are doing now and discuss it. The decision will be made for us.

    If tearing down the US Constitution is the goal, by WHATEVER means, I consider it treason. I consider those doing so unamerican and traitors. I would have half if not more of them in jail. I most certainly would not watch them walking out of my living room with the TV, sofa, etc while arguing the definition of ownership.
    I am confused though, how one says to go ahead and break the laws, but say the Constitution matters to them. I guess you're saying just during these 'extreme' times, ones that have never faced this country before?
    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



  16. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    I am confused though, how one says to go ahead and break the laws, but say the Constitution matters to them. I guess you're saying just during these 'extreme' times, ones that have never faced this country before?
    That's the rub with you and me and this topic.

    It was okay for Lincoln to suspend habeus corpus and he's considered a National hero. That was in direct violation of the Constitution. And that was just one of the Constitutional Rights he trampled.

    FDR basically suspended everyone's Rights "for the duration". Especially the First Amendment Right to free speech. Free speech included only "I love 'Merica".

    The country has, in fact, faced times just as extreme before. I consider the very existence of the Constitution being at stake quite extreme and that is where we are. If "suspending habeus corpus" is justified to preserve the Union, which has been set as a precedent in this country, so be it.
    My quota of bullshit cop outs from closed minds is full today, Tomorrow's not looking good for you either.

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