Super Minion
Originally Posted by Noir
If it has escaped your notice, Bolton isn't really 'inside' lately. Like most of the generals that once were popular, all has gone quiet. Indeed, Rand Paul was sent and nothing has been heard. The US is not beating any war drums.
"The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill
Plant Parenthood.
Id missed the Bolton quietening - I did think he was a very weird pick for Trump from the start, maybe that’s come to fruit a little.
And Rand Paul IIRC is about as anti-interventionalist as a mainstream political gets, so I wouldn’t expect him to be recommending deployments anywhere. That may well be a factor in the UKs failure, without America leading Britain starts to look a lot more coy.
If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.
Super Minion
In fairness, Hunt spoke up before it was known about Iran requesting Rand Paul. While it now seems like there's a loose coalition forming for the Gulf, so far nothing official. Bottom line, Europe and President Trump do not trust each other. That's my take.
"The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill
Noir liked this post
Super Minion
I have to agree with this. Too often the US helps out other countries, then they turn around and call the US a war monger. This seems to be giving clarity to our 'special relationship':
https://www.foxnews.com/world/pompeo...aptured-tanker
IRANPublished 2 hours ago
Pompeo on Iran’s capture of British-flagged tanker: Up to ‘United Kingdom to take care of their ships’
The responsibility to free the British-flagged oil tanker seized last week by Iran “falls to the United Kingdom,” Secretary of State Mike Pompeo told "Fox & Friends" Monday, while warning the “whole world is waking up to the fact that this [Iranian] threat is real.”
The comments from Pompeo come as British Prime Minister Theresa May issued a fresh call for Iran to release the Stena Impero ship and its 23-person crew. The vessel, which was captured Friday in the Strait of Hormuz, currently is anchored outside the Iranian port city of Bandar Abbas.
“The responsibility…falls to the United Kingdom to take care of their ships,” Pompeo said when asked what role the U.S should play in the matter. “This is a bad regime. It’s not honoring the people of Iran. They have now conducted what amounts to national piracy – a nation-state taking over a ship that’s traveling in international waters.”
Pompeo said the “the United States has a responsibility to do our part, but the world’s got a big role in this too – to keep these sea lanes open.”
He added that Iran’s recent behavior should alarm nations around the globe.
“We don’t want war with Iran. We want them to behave like a normal nation. I think they understand that and I think the whole world is waking up to the fact that this threat is real,” Pompeo told "Fox & Friends." “It’s not just a threat against America, it’s not just a threat against Israel. It’s a threat against all of us.”
May, speaking to reporters Monday, again demanded the release of the British-flagged tanker.
"The ship was seized under false and illegal pretenses and the Iranians should release it and its crew immediately," she said, according to Reuters. “We do not seek confrontation with Iran but it is unacceptable and highly escalatory to seize a ship going about legitimate business through internationally recognized shipping lanes."
During the weekend, Iran released video purportedly showing its Revolutionary Guards soldiers in black ski masks and fatigues rappelling from a helicopter onto the oil tanker. Senior Iranian officials have said the ship’s seizure was carried out in retaliation for British forces helping to capture an Iranian tanker off the island of Gibraltar on July 4.
Authorities say that tanker carried oil bound for Syria in violation of European Union sanctions.
"The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill
Senior Member
Other countries hating our guts , but sure expecting us to step in when they get in trouble, has been an issue for decades. This is why I always laugh when someone is like "outside of the US Trump is the least popular President ever" Well yes , because he's cut off the money flow to countries that obviously hate us.
Drummond thanked this post
Steelers in '23
Throughout our society there has been Non-Stop yanking to the left and the right and then back to the left and the right through politics. And absolutely, over time this stresses society as a whole without a doubt. Difficult to please everyone obviously. I'm surprised ours hasn't exploded again.
While I don't not want to go on scavenger hunts or want to learn a lot of new stuff myself we can all obviously learn from both societies. I think major events and milestones and wars and such are easy to research, the problem comes in depending on where the "facts" are coming from. If you were at most colleges in the United States as of today you would be getting it leaning from the left most likely. And as you see with the US media, they're in the can for the democrats, and 90% of the MSM is left leaning. Fox News being the primary I know of.
The left and left appear to be lining up more and more between both countries. And let me assure you they are just as damaging here, at least as of today's standards. At least from what I want out of life they are very damaging and almost every political aspect possible. And from what I want out of life it is not taking any money from a single other person alive. I would not be dependent on our government. (I would be hoping for a limited government overall). I do not want socialism and don't want anything from anybody else nor do I want things taken from me especially money!I argue against the Left, be it my country's version of it, or yours. But with me, it isn't just that I hold a view which makes me THINK I'm right: I absolutely KNOW with CERTAINTY that I'm right. It isn't a matter of debate with me, but certain knowledge of being right.
And for me I am speaking about politics here mainly the left and the right. And I believe we all know what I mean when I say the left and the right and the decisions they make within politics. I am not trying to say the left or liberals are all bad people, someone can be a good person and still have shit politics. Just like somebody can have very good politics and be a complete asshole at times. But the left, as a political system or political belief in my idea is horrid, and simply bad for America. In my opinion neither side is perfection, but one side is sure as hell a lot better.
Well, that sure does sound like you just described American lefties/Democrats.I know this: the Left has its worldview, and its political imperatives, and it'll sink to any level, do anything at all, to win through with them. It's intensely propagandist, and will insist its propaganda succeeds. If you're anti-Islam for whatever reason, you're automatically bigoted and racist, and all proof to the contrary is dismissed and subject to hate campaigns.
“You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock
Senior Member
Even we don't have the ship power to escort ships individually. What we'll have to do is go old school and start running escorted convoys. Now that runs some dangers of it own as we found out a few time versus German Wolkpacks, but on the whole there is security in numbers and I don't see the Iranians being stupid enough to directly attack a vessel that is part of a convoy that is being protected by any first world Navy.
Either that or we just barricade Iran's Navy in their own docks. You leave port, we sink you, but that kinda defeats the argument that the sea is open to save travel for all LOL
Drummond thanked this post
Super Minion
Some good news. . .
Europe coalition:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9016301.html
@Drummond or @Noir how likely are EU members to join with UK?Iran tanker crisis: Jeremy Hunt announces joint European task force to protect British ships
Foreign secretary accuses Iran of taking part in ‘state piracy’ as he condemns seizure of the Stena Impero
The UK will seek to organise a European-led naval contingent for the Gulf to escort ships following an “act of state piracy” by Iran in seizing a British tanker.
Jeremy Hunt told the Commons that discussions have taken place with a number of allied states in the last 48 hours on the forming of a protection force with further talks to be held later this week.
The foreign secretary said: “It is with a heavy heart that we are announcing this increased international presence in the Gulf because the focus of our diplomacy has been on de-escalating tensions in the hope that such changes would not be necessary.”
...
"The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill
Super Minion
I do wonder what France & Germany have regarding naval warships, IF they choose to help Britain? Britain seems to be woefully short of being able to go it alone:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...ships-18499603
1982: Four aircraft carriers, 13 destroyers, and 47 frigates
2008: Two aircraft carriers, eight destroyers, 17 frigates
2019: one aircraft carrier, which will not have any planes until 2021, six aircraft carriers and 13 frigates
"The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill
Drummond thanked this post
Thatcherite Minion
You must be joking.
If, repeat, IF, you come from my part of the world, then you know my society. Its history must be familiar to you, surely ? You know what lessons there have been to learn. You therefore know that I have a good basis for my own mindset.
I learn the lessons there are to learn, Noir .. I'm a realist. I don't cling to a philosophy in defiance of all realism. If someone teaches me a good and valuable lesson, if it's there to learn, I learn it.
Should YOU feel embarrassment, Noir, for doing the opposite ?
It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!
Thatcherite Minion
Impossible to be certain. Given our great difficulties over Brexit, maybe some EU members will feel a show of support for the UK position may dampen enthusiasm for leaving the EU.
Or, they might see it as a bargaining chip: see things more our way, they could say, show us signs of it, then, when it suits you, we'll reciprocate with the support you need ...
There is no definite news on this as yet. My feeling is that Europe will have an interest in agreeing that coalition. It'll be interesting politically, because Iran can interpret it as evidence of EU support for the nuke deal is waning.
Thatcherite Minion
What I draw from this is confirmation of what I think is true.
It's totally understandable that you'd not fully 'get' what I'd mean you to understand about the extremes between Left and Right, because the extremes you're familiar with don't match ours. So: imagine facing this reality, for American politics, not mine:
Imagine there's a candidate for the US Presidency who wants to run America in a way consistent with the British Labour Party leader's plans, and his own worldview. OK. In that scenario, the Presidential hopeful would want his Presidency to be defined by the following:
- An unshakeable determination, which he'd be content to publicly declare, that there would NEVER be ANY scenario in which he'd ever use your nuclear arsenal against any adversary (goodbye, its deterrence factor !)
- The institution of our version of an NHS, with all healthcare run by, fully dominated by, Government control. No alternatives permitted, by law: all healthcare mandatorily paid for out of taxation.
- Outlawing any right to speak out publicly against any faith or belief system, and the branding of the tag 'racist' for anyone who tries. Powers instituted for arrests against 'perpetrators' if deemed appropriate to nullify 'public tensions'.
- Very tough gun laws. Say goodbye to the right to own a gun.
- Official support for the likes of Hamas .. a willingness to share public platforms with its representatives.
- Strong condemnation whenever Israel defends itself against Hamas terrorism.
- Taking services into public ownership: gas supplies, electricity, water, all rail and public transportation services. Turn them into State monopolies.
- Say goodbye to automatically presumed control of what happens to your body after death. Organ 'donation' becomes the mandatory default, unless the deceased has previously taken measures to prevent organ grabs.
- A softening of Trade Union controls.
That is just a mere taste of the BRITISH brand of Socialism, Jim (there's more I could add). The Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, either has been, or will be, in favour of ALL of the above measures and occurrences. Every one.
Here's my point. Corbyn, with all of this well known, does stand a significant chance of forming a Government after our next election. All I describe is seen by some to be palatable and 'good' for our society. Why ? BECAUSE OUR LEFT HAS WORKED HARD TO CONVINCE PEOPLE OF ITS CORRECTNESS, AND HAS HAD ITS SUCCESSES.
Now, Jim, can you imagine your Left instituting that lot in America ? Of course not. Your Left is far less extreme than ours. You just cannot compare the two, not as matters stand. However .. with enough work, over long enough, a form of Left could come together that would push for such inroads. Trust me, it's coming, unless you prepare for the eventuality. The Left here has got away with far more than it has, so far, where you are. But don't kid yourself that, if it could, your Left would be incapable of being as extreme. No society is immune to such ideological poison.
Ours wasn't ... why would yours be ?
LongTermGuy liked this post
Thatcherite Minion
I just wanted to say that I've nothing but sympathy for that point of view, and I've posted on this in years past.
My country has been prone to that sort of attitude in the past (I think it was a factor over the Falklands war, for example, back in the early Eighties; though, happily, Ron & Maggie had a better relationship than many leaders did). I agree. Some of my own people are simultaneously highly critical of aspects of American politics they don't like, but expect you all to instantly forget such judgments when we find it convenient.
It infuriates me. If America is our friend, and one we have expectations of 'rushing to our aid', then it's a friend we should respect and appreciate, not one we'll turn against at other times.
It's one reason why I felt pure disgust at the revelation of Kim Darroch's backstabbing libels. His comments showed him to be unfit for his job, and a national disgrace.
LongTermGuy liked this post
Steelers in '23
I fully agree again. Same with what I replied to. And trust me, I fully get/got what you were saying!! I may not know all the particulars of the overall history, but enough, and enough to have fully understood what you wrote, and continue to.
And while not identical, we have similar issues here. The left has stayed the course on their garbage and lies. Some lies they have told for so long.... some things they yammer on about for years and then people give in, and society goes another millimeter down the societal toilet bowl. And if not reigned in, yes, the bowl will be overtaken & flushed.
We are certainly not immune and already see MANY signs of a weakening structure to America and all of her values.
“You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock
Thatcherite Minion
Well said, Jim .. & thanks.I fully agree again. Same with what I replied to. And trust me, I fully get/got what you were saying!! I may not know all the particulars of the overall history, but enough, and enough to have fully understood what you wrote, and continue to.
And while not identical, we have similar issues here. The left has stayed the course on their garbage and lies. Some lies they have told for so long.... some things they yammer on about for years and then people give in, and society goes another millimeter down the societal toilet bowl. And if not reigned in, yes, the bowl will be overtaken & flushed.
We are certainly not immune and already see MANY signs of a weakening structure to America and all of her values.
There are certain outrageous liberties which the American Left cannot take, which ours can ... BUT ... that's only for now. The Left need time to work to make their ultimate goals possible, then realisable. They have to launch their propaganda offensives, to skew opinions, worldviews, over time. Yes, they'll 'yammer on', because they have to dripfeed their ideas into acceptance. And they'll never, ever, stop ... until their goals are achieved.
They've known great success over here. For example: gay marriage. Social attitudes here, now, have been changed to the point where if you're inclined to oppose it, you're 'a bigot'. Or worse. Compare that attitude to society's attitude to that mere IDEA being suggested three decades ago, and the reality of the Left's terraforming activities becomes extremely clear.
All the more so, in fact, when you consider that it was a British CONSERVATIVE Prime Minister (Cameron) who'd so bought into that social change that HE helped usher it in. He said at the time that he did so, proudly.
The Left corrupts, subverts. It's perhaps THE key goal they have to help 'justify' their very existence. Right now, the Left may be incapable of selling some of their ideas to the American public, and their public face gives no hint of any such agenda being in place. But, then, the same would've been true of the British Left, back in the 1950's, say.
Time, and effort, changes everything. That is, IF this is ALLOWED. I see it as a vital Conservative imperative to make sure the rot doesn't take hold, as the Left would dearly love it to.
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