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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    If getting our troops out is the only end game, then I guess this is a win.

    I suppose a bit of tempering regarding 'success' may be in order. Notice the Taliban and Afghanistan government really aren't communicating, indeed the Taliban continues to attack both the military and civil police. So, the issues there and likely Afghanistan as a sanctuary for terrorists will revert. I don't think that their agreement could be reached in time for the US elections, if ever.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...814_story.html

    Ah success arrives! No matter that the Taliban is going all out to kill as many Americans as possible in closing days. No matter that Afghan government has basically walked away, 'betrayal.' We are bugging out, which is Success!

    http://icasualties.org/



    https://hotair.com/archives/ed-morri...d-afghanistan/

    Pompeo: We Have “Succeeded” In AfghanistanED MORRISSEYPosted at 10:01 am on September 6, 2019




    Just how close are we to a deal with the Taliban? Close enough, the Washington Post notes, that the Trump administration has begun to declare victory in preparation for departing the field. Mike Pompeo carefully parsed this victory as pertaining to the “original mission” of the war in Afghanistan in an interview with the Daily Signal:


    Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said the United States has “delivered” on its mission to oust al-Qaeda from Afghanistan and deter terrorist attacks plotted in the country and neighboring Pakistan.


    The top diplomat’s upbeat message came ahead of a potential announcement of a peace deal between the United States and Taliban that has been tested by repeated Taliban bombings and is opposed by President Trump’s national security adviser.


    In an interview published Wednesday with the Daily Signal, a news outlet affiliated with the conservative Heritage Foundation, Pompeo said American forces engaged in the United States’ longest war have been “successful” in achieving their original mission.


    Oddly (nor maybe not so much), the Post doesn’t actually provide a link to the Daily Signal article. Nevertheless, their characterization of Pompeo’s remarks matches that of the Daily Signal’s Nolan Peterson, who took note of the “shifting goal posts” of the Secretary of State:


    “If you go back and look at the days following 9/11, the objectives set out were pretty clear: to go defeat al-Qaeda, the group that had launched the attack on the United States of America from Afghanistan. And today, al-Qaeda … doesn’t even amount to a shadow of its former self in Afghanistan,” Pompeo told The Daily Signal in an exclusive interview.


    “We have delivered,” the secretary of state added in the telephone interview. …


    Despite the shifting goal posts for what victory in Afghanistan looks like, Pompeo said U.S. forces have been “successful” in achieving their original mission.


    “There is a real achievement that has taken place, and we have in fact for now almost two decades greatly reduced the risk that an attack on the United States of America would emanate from Afghan soil, or for that matter from Pakistan as well,” Pompeo told The Daily Signal.


    Peterson’s not the only one noticing the goalposts moving. The Afghan government has publicly objected to the deal forming between the US and the Taliban, in part because the Afghan government doesn’t have much say in it. However, president Ashraf Ghani also criticizes the proposal because it doesn’t have any enforcement mechanism if the Taliban break their word:


    The Afghan government is criticizing parts of a proposed U.S.-Taliban deal to withdraw U.S. and other foreign forces from Afghanistan, saying the accord contains no clear penalties if the insurgency fails to comply.


    Zalmay Khalilzad, the chief U.S. negotiator to the Afghan peace process, said this week that he had completed an agreement in principle with the insurgents, more than a year after Washington resumed direct talks with Taliban officials in the Gulf state of Qatar. Mr. Khalilzad told a local television station on Monday that the deal awaited only President Trump’s approval.


    That would explain why Pompeo’s on a PR campaign to declare victory on the “original mission.” The mission quickly evolved into a project to restore human rights and democracy in Afghanistan, however, and the US and NATO have spent almost two decades attempting to shore up Kabul’s recognized government as the sole legitimate power in the country. At some point, that government has to stand on its own, but the terms of the peace deal appear to divide that legitimacy with the Taliban’s claim of an “emirate” — apparently with the US’ blessing:


    “It is not clear what happens if and when the Taliban fail to comply with the commitments they’re making to the U.S.,” a senior official said. “There’s no guarantee of any action.”


    The government also complained about the U.S. allowing the Taliban to sign the accord as “the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan.” Whether to call the country an emirate or—as the government and the international community officially refer to it—the “Islamic Republic of Afghanistan” is an issue to be discussed in Norway.


    By using it in the Doha accord, the U.S. is “giving the Taliban a legitimacy, almost puts them in a position of being a government,” the official said. “The U.S. never called them that. We never call them that—we called them terrorists. This is the first time this has happened.”


    Speaking of which … here’s the “emirate” in action:




    CBS This Morning

    @CBSThisMorning
    An American is among two NATO service members killed in the latest Taliban attack in the capital of Afghanistan. The car bomb in Kabul yesterday killed 12 people and wounded 42 others. @charliecbs is in Afghanistan with more:




    While it’s getting more difficult to explain what our goals are in Afghanistan, this doesn’t look like “success” or victory. It looks like we’re bugging out, and we’re betraying the people we asked to help pull Afghanistan back into modernity by leaving them at the mercy of the thugs. Expect that lesson to be long remembered by more strategic potential allies than the Afghans.
    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    Ah success arrives! No matter that the Taliban is going all out to kill as many Americans as possible in closing days. No matter that Afghan government has basically walked away, 'betrayal.' We are bugging out, which is Success!

    http://icasualties.org/



    https://hotair.com/archives/ed-morri...d-afghanistan/

    I don't actually know ANYONE who is saying we won anything in Afghanistan Kath, so not sure who you and the author of your article are admonishing.

    In fact , that is precisely why I want to get out of there. I'm tired of our men and women being killed and wounded in a war where we have no clear goals other than some vague idea of bringing democracy to a people who don't even understand the most basic concept of democracy.

    How many trillions of dollars must we spend and how many lives must be lost before you say "wait, we've been at war 40 years now, this isn't working?"

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by STTAB View Post
    I don't actually know ANYONE who is saying we won anything in Afghanistan Kath, so not sure who you and the author of your article are admonishing.

    In fact , that is precisely why I want to get out of there. I'm tired of our men and women being killed and wounded in a war where we have no clear goals other than some vague idea of bringing democracy to a people who don't even understand the most basic concept of democracy.

    How many trillions of dollars must we spend and how many lives must be lost before you say "wait, we've been at war 40 years now, this isn't working?"

    Hey, it's 'WINNING!' When it makes you happy.
    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    Hey, it's 'WINNING!' When it makes you happy.
    ^ You are certainly above that type of response.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STTAB View Post
    ^ You are certainly above that type of response.
    Actually, not. Even you should be able to see I've been saying this is wrong for those that have served and all those who've died. Those that went along with serving the 'government' in Afghanistan, those that dealt with us in good faith? The Taliban will kill.

    Promises made. Promises kept?

    Agreement in principle. With the Taliban. Winning!
    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    Actually, not. Even you should be able to see I've been saying this is wrong for those that have served and all those who've died. Those that went along with serving the 'government' in Afghanistan, those that dealt with us in good faith? The Taliban will kill.

    Promises made. Promises kept?

    Agreement in principle. With the Taliban. Winning!

    And you don't think it's wrong to stay over in perpetuity once we recognize that there is no "winning?"

    At no point in this thread have yous stated what you think our goal should be, or at what point you would say "we just can't get it done here"

    Trump got stuck with a war started by one President and continued by another, at some point SOMEONE has to get us out of there.

    If the Afghan people don't care that their government has made a deal with the Taliban, why should we?

    Do you recall from your history courses that the US made a deal which allowed the Emperor of Japan to remain in position in his country ? Sometimes you have to make deals that you don't love to get out of bad situations.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by STTAB View Post
    And you don't think it's wrong to stay over in perpetuity once we recognize that there is no "winning?"

    At no point in this thread have yous stated what you think our goal should be, or at what point you would say "we just can't get it done here"

    Trump got stuck with a war started by one President and continued by another, at some point SOMEONE has to get us out of there.

    If the Afghan people don't care that their government has made a deal with the Taliban, why should we?

    Do you recall from your history courses that the US made a deal which allowed the Emperor of Japan to remain in position in his country ? Sometimes you have to make deals that you don't love to get out of bad situations.
    I would never try to compare our history knowledge.

    I do think whomever is president has to take things where they lie. Thus, perhaps he should have listened a couple years ago, to attempts to get things back to getting rid/driving down the Taliban, stop with the building government, beyond hardening those already in place. We should have been dealing in the good faith with the government we DID help to establish and then get out.

    That's called, Promises kept.
    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    I would never try to compare our history knowledge.

    I do think whomever is president has to take things where they lie. Thus, perhaps he should have listened a couple years ago, to attempts to get things back to getting rid/driving down the Taliban, stop with the building government, beyond hardening those already in place. We should have been dealing in the good faith with the government we DID help to establish and then get out.

    That's called, Promises kept.

    Sometimes it's not so easy to make chicken salad out of chicken shit. However, I will say this, and I've always said this. don't think Trump REALLY thought he was gonna win in 2016, so he never had a team of HIS people ready to go at key positions and so he's always been relying on advice from people who just frankly have neither his best interest nor the best interest of this country in mind.

    The truth is DC is full of fucking warhawks who are getting rich off the perpetual state of war we are in, on BOTH sides of the aisle and if giving the President, Congress and the American people a bunch of fucking lies to protect their war is what they have to do, that's what they will do.

  9. #24
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    A step too far? "They admitted it!"

    The US has been 'in talks' with the party, (Taliban) that kills our troops; allows ISIS and al Queda into Afghanistan;and who refuses to work with the Afghan government, elected with US military help.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...ghan-president

    Trump cancels secret meeting with Taliban leaders, Afghan president after attack
    BY JOHN BOWDEN AND MORGAN CHALFANT - 09/07/19 07:10 PM EDT

    SPONSORED: IRAN: THE UNTOLD STORY
    TheHill.com
    Trump cancels secret meeting with Taliban leaders, Afghan president after attack
    BY JOHN BOWDEN AND MORGAN CHALFANT - 09/07/19 07:10 PM EDT 2,648
    1,943

    President Trump announced Saturday he had canceled a planned secret meeting with leaders of the Taliban and Afghanistan's president at Camp David.


    Trump also said he had called off negotiations with the insurgent group after Taliban leadership claimed credit for a deadly attack in Kabul.


    In a series of tweets, the president condemned Taliban commanders for an attack in the Afghan capital that killed 11 civilians and a U.S. service member and questioned whether the leaders of the militant group could negotiate a "meaningful" peace agreement.

    "Unbeknownst to almost everyone, the major Taliban leaders and, separately, the President of Afghanistan, were going to secretly meet with me at Camp David on Sunday. They were coming to the United States tonight. Unfortunately, in order to build false leverage, they admitted to an attack in Kabul that killed one of our great great soldiers, and 11 other people," Trump tweeted.


    "I immediately cancelled the meeting and called off peace negotiations. What kind of people would kill so many in order to seemingly strengthen their bargaining position?" he asked.


    "They didn’t, they only made it worse! If they cannot agree to a ceasefire during these very important peace talks, and would even kill 12 innocent people, then they probably don’t have the power to negotiate a meaningful agreement anyway. How many more decades are they willing to fight?" Trump finished.

    ...


    Donald J. Trump
    @realDonaldTrump
    · 2h
    Replying to @realDonaldTrump
    ....an attack in Kabul that killed one of our great great soldiers, and 11 other people. I immediately cancelled the meeting and called off peace negotiations. What kind of people would kill so many in order to seemingly strengthen their bargaining position? They didn’t, they....
    Donald J. Trump
    @realDonaldTrump
    ....only made it worse! If they cannot agree to a ceasefire during these very important peace talks, and would even kill 12 innocent people, then they probably don’t have the power to negotiate a meaningful agreement anyway. How many more decades are they willing to fight?
    31K
    3:51 PM - Sep 7, 2019

    ...

    The White House has not provided more information about the president’s tweets in response to a request from The Hill. The details surrounding the meeting referenced by Trump were unclear.


    The Trump administration has been negotiating for months with Taliban leaders from the group's political office in Doha, Qatar, despite the group's refusal to engage directly with the Afghan government, which it views as a U.S. puppet.


    A spokesperson for the militant group took credit for a Monday bombing in Kabul that killed 12 people in an interview with The Associated Press, claiming that it gave the group a stronger bargaining position.


    “[W]e understand that peace talks are going on ... but they must also understand that we are not weak and if we enter into talks ... we enter from a strong position,” the spokesperson said.


    Five Taliban assailants were reportedly shot and killed by Afghan security forces following the attack.


    U.S. envoy Zalmay Khalilzad announced earlier this week that the Trump administration had reached an agreement "in principle" to shutter several bases and withdraw 5,000 troops from the country within about five months in exchange for a peace deal with the Taliban.


    Trump campaigned on withdrawing U.S. troops from Afghanistan during 2016 to end America's longest war, but has faced hurdles in fulfilling that promise.


    Military leaders have argued for the need or a continued presence in Afghanistan, where the United States currently has roughly 14,000 troops. Trump has also faced pressure from his Republican allies on Capitol Hill, like Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.), who have warned against a full withdrawal from the worn-torn country.

    ...





    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



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    A Pre-9/11 Mindset Returning?

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/...-9-11-mindset/

    The Turn Toward a Pre-9/11 Mindset
    By ANDREW C. MCCARTHY
    September 7, 2019 6:30 AM

    ...

    What is now happening is a turn to a pre-9/11 security footing. Notice, I said a turn, not a return. It remains to be seen whether, in reality, we have gotten to the point where our threat environment is what it was thought to be before the onslaught; yet, the country has determined to conduct itself as if that were the case.


    It’s a bold experiment. I doubt that it will work, though I’d love to be wrong.


    Signs of the change were all around us this week, at home and half a world away. In Virginia, a federal judge invalidated the Terrorist Screening Database, a watch list secretly compiled by the government, which subjects those listed to heightened security vetting before they are permitted to board commercial aircraft. In Kabul, the Trump administration’s envoy struck an agreement in principle to reduce the number of American troops in Afghanistan, with an eye toward a withdrawal that would purportedly “end” what the president describes as our “endless” war — U.S. forces having invaded the country in those tense days, 18 years ago.

    ...

    The regrettable legacy of 9/11 and its ambiguous aftermath is the intrusion of the courts into the national-security realm. Judges, whom we insulate from politics, have no constitutional responsibility for national defense. It is supposed to be left to the elected officials accountable to the people whose lives are at stake.


    There is wisdom in making national-security decisions political rather than legal. The law strives for rigorous logic, a one-size-fits-all balancing of public-safety concerns against individual rights. Over time, judges reliably expand both the ambit of these rights and the categories of entitled individuals — to include even non-Americans who bear no responsibilities of citizenship, and even enemies who make war on Americans.



    ...

    Intelligence-based security can be effective only if the government can collect and analyze it in secret. Otherwise, we will get scant cooperation from key sources of threat information, from foreign intelligence services to people who’ve been admonished to say something if they see something. Yet we remain error-prone humans acting on imperfect information. A suspicion that a person could be a threat, however reasonable, will necessarily be wrong in some cases. Some innocent people inevitably will be harassed. On the other hand, if suspected people are given notice of, and a meaningful opportunity to challenge, their placement on the list, the list will no longer be secret. And if it is not secret, it will no longer be effective.


    It is Congress that is supposed to wrestle with these tough line-drawing exercises. Legislative power is adaptable. It can adjust our precautions as the threat environment changes. It can adopt metrics that increase or decrease screening, while providing for searching oversight. It can ensure that the FBI and other executive security agencies are making decisions based on proper factors, that there are sensible standards for inclusion in the database, and that the inclusion of individual Americans is periodically reevaluated such that they are removed unless there is a good reason for their continued listing.

    The executive is responsible for safeguarding the nation, so it will naturally err on the side of heightened security measures. The courts are a bulwark against government abuse, so judges naturally err on the side of individual rights. That’s why Congress is so essential. Lawmakers are supposed to account for these competing interests. But Congress does not do much legislating anymore. It delegates, leaving members more TV time to complain about how bad things are. While many of us are not fans of having judges draw the lines, someone has to do it. When the politically accountable officials duck, courts must fill the void.

    ...

    Meanwhile, in Afghanistan, the Taliban have greeted the announcement of a near-term U.S. withdrawal not with reciprocal toasts to peace in our time, but with a series of terrorist attacks. The latest (at least as this is written) was on Thursday, killing an American soldier along with a Romanian soldier from our allied forces, as well as eight others.


    See, what our government frames as “peace” talks the Taliban are portraying as surrender. They are attacking because they want Afghans to believe they are driving the superpower out in humiliating defeat, just as their mujahideen forebearers drove out the Red Army, hastening the Soviet empire’s collapse.


    This week, we learned that former defense secretary James Mattis quit Donald Trump’s administration because, he told the president, he refused to be the Pentagon chief who lost to ISIS in Syria. So far, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has declined to sign off on the “peace” deal negotiated by the administration’s emissary, Zalmay Khalilzad. Obviously, he doesn’t want to be remembered as the foreign-policy chief for an American government that lost to the Taliban.


    In the negotiations, the Taliban are insisting that the Trump administration refer to them as the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. That was what their regime was called when it imposed sharia governance on the country from 1996 through late 2001. Those were the years when they gave safe harbor to al-Qaeda, which proceeded to execute mass-murder attacks on American diplomatic, military, political, and economic targets. These culminated, 18 years ago, in 9/11.


    As this week reminds us, the Taliban still fights shoulder-to-shoulder with al-Qaeda to kill Americans. When our troops vacate Afghanistan, the Islamic Emirate will be reestablished, the U.S.-backed government will be dismantled, Afghans who allied with the United States will be purged, and al-Qaeda will set up shop again. It will enjoy a status similar to that of Hezbollah in Lebanon: a quasi-government armed force whose main focus is the global jihad.


    Its main target is still America.


    In 2019, you can declare you’re in a pre-9/11 world. Just like you can declare a war is over because you got tired of fighting. Just like you can declare the aviation precautions are overkill because you’d like them to be. Doesn’t make it so.
    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



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    No one else finds it strange that the White House had plans to honor the Taliban at Camp David? 3 days before the 17 years after 9/11?
    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    No one else finds it strange that the White House had plans to honor the Taliban at Camp David? 3 days before the 17 years after 9/11?
    "Honor" ???....your watching to much CNN......Your comment is strange...




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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongTermGuy View Post
    "Honor" ???....your watching to much CNN......Your comment is strange...

    Hardly. Camp David invitation is an honor for respected guests of our President. To be offered such is a sign of respect. To offer such to the Taliban? They alloy, encouraged the plotting of bin laden. They are still plotting bringing the US to subjugation. Like the killing of the innocents, they admit it.
    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



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    Default This is typically how the Left operates.

    Quote Originally Posted by LongTermGuy View Post
    "Honor" ???....your watching to much CNN......Your comment is strange...


    They accuse Trump of not being qualified for anything. So, when he tries...they accuse him again of Bowing Down to the enemy.

    When the meeting is canceled...they do the opposite...same thing in reverse. Still say he had no right to plan such a meeting....Secretly....as if he wanted to Hide it from WE THE PEOPLE.

    It's called "BEING STUCK BETWEEN A ROCK, AND A HARD PLACE" or "DAMNED IF YOU DO, DAMNED IF YOU DON'T"

    A better word for all of the arranged HATRED for the President is...."HYPOCRISY".
    I may be older than most. I may say things not everybody will like.
    But despite all of that. I will never lower myself to the level of Liars, Haters, Cheats, and Hypocrites.

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  17. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by icansayit View Post
    They accuse Trump of not being qualified for anything. So, when he tries...they accuse him again of Bowing Down to the enemy.

    When the meeting is canceled...they do the opposite...same thing in reverse. Still say he had no right to plan such a meeting....Secretly....as if he wanted to Hide it from WE THE PEOPLE.

    It's called "BEING STUCK BETWEEN A ROCK, AND A HARD PLACE" or "DAMNED IF YOU DO, DAMNED IF YOU DON'T"

    A better word for all of the arranged HATRED for the President is...."HYPOCRISY".
    So you are happy with an invitation to Camp David to those who’s worn to conquer this country.

    I guess that’s the new definition of heroes?
    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



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