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  1. #1
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    Default What Do You Think Should Be Done Regarding Gun Control Issues?

    It seems the president is sold on better background checks, beyond that it's cloudy. How much do you think the past 3 shootings and all the media/Democrat candidates talk is getting to him?

    https://hotair.com/archives/ed-morri...ground-checks/

    If Donald Trump wanted to shake up the status quo on politics after mass shootings, he succeeded — perhaps more than his allies thought. Over the last two days, Trump has publicly expressed conceptual support for “red flag” laws and more comprehensive background checks, two types of legislation opposed in practice by Trump’s supporters at the NRA. His declaration yesterday of seeing a “great appetite for background checks” prompted a call from Wayne LaPierre in an attempt to head off a legislative disaster for the gun-rights group:


    President Trump has repeatedly told lawmakers and aides in private conversations that he is open to endorsing extensive background checks in the wake of two mass shootings, prompting a warning from the National Rifle Association and concerns among White House aides, according to lawmakers and administration officials. …


    NRA chief executive Wayne LaPierre spoke with Trump on Tuesday after the president expressed support for a background check bill and told him it would not be popular among Trump’s supporters, according to officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity to freely discuss internal talks. LaPierre also argued against the bill’s merits, the officials said.


    The NRA, which opposes the legislation sponsored by Sens. Patrick J. Toomey (R-Pa.) and Joe Manchin III (D-W.Va.), declined to comment.

    Trump has floated the idea of supporting the Toomey-Manchin effort before, only to dispense with the idea later. But did that flirtation include plans for a Rose Garden signing?




    Trump has focused on guns extensively since the shootings, calling lawmakers and surveying aides about what he should do — outreach that began Sunday evening. White House officials say there has been a series of meetings on a response, convened by acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney, including a session Tuesday morning. The president has discussed with aides the idea of a Rose Garden bill-signing ceremony for gun-control legislation, a notion that seems premature to many in the West Wing.


    Probably not premature enough for the NRA, which will fight any version of Toomey-Manchin as unresponsive. They won’t be far off, either, because at least for the moment it doesn’t appear that background checks were the issue in these shootings. As with Parkland, the problem at least appears to have been a lack of a legal record that would have prevented sales when background checks were performed. The shooters sent up a lot of red flags, but for now it doesn’t appear that law enforcement took enough action to make background checks effective.


    The Washington Post provides an example today of how the current system actually may have prevented a mass shooting. Thanks to a lost iPhone, the FBI nabbed a white supremacist for child pornography, but only after he was prevented from buying weaponry to act on “hunting guides” he had published:

    According to federal court records, Gilreath sat for an interview with the FBI on Jan. 24, after agents received a tip that someone had been posting online “hunting guides” targeting Jews, Muslims, refugee centers, Bureau of Land Management offices and Montana National Guard facilities, and linked a document labeled as a “Montana Hunting Guide” to the 29-year-old.


    Activists in Oregon and Washington state have warned about such guides, which map the addresses of potential targets for white supremacist attacks. They are also a phenomenon that’s well known to the FBI. Investigators have found that the guides often contain information that can be used to “violently target” people with different ethnicities, religious beliefs and political views, the complaint states.


    Court records don’t indicate what transpired at the January interview, and Gilreath was not arrested. Four months later, on May 24, he went to a gun store in downtown Boulder and attempted to buy a firearm, handing over his Colorado driver’s license and filling out the mandatory paperwork from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. He was rejected. Afterward, the criminal complaint states, he sent a frustrated text message to his father.


    “You’ve permanently ruined my ability to buy a gun in Colo. and other states,” he wrote.

    It’s not yet clear what specifically prevented the sale, but something certainly did. It’s also not clear why the FBI didn’t pick up Gilreath after his attempt to illegally buy a weapon, something that rarely happens even with the current background-check system. That’s one complaint from the NRA about Toomey-Manchin and similar legislation — that law enforcement doesn’t follow up now on attempts at illegal purchases, an action that also might save a lot of lives.


    The NRA may be barking up the wrong tree. Trump’s not looking for reasons to do nothing — he’s looking for ways to answer the demand to do something. As I write in my column for The Week, Trump knows better than most that he didn’t get elected to do nothing:


    Voters may at times prioritize the economy, health care, and immigration as higher policy priorities, but the most urgent business of government is public safety. The more that mass shootings occur, the more they become viewed as potential threats to voters in a personal way, no matter how many statistics show that they’re not occurring on a more or less frequent basis. When voters perceive threats to public safety, they expect office holders to do something, not explain various reasons to embrace futility, even if that something may or may not help the problem.


    With a tough re-election fight ahead, Trump wisely chose to address the issue head-on and to reframe it around his own policy priorities. After a strange attempt on Twitter to link gun policies to immigration reform, Trump delivered a statement that focused on unity, bipartisanship, and most notably, the need for action. And he made it clear that despite the mutual support between himself and the NRA, Trump is willing to bargain to do something. …


    Action is Trump’s default mode as it is, but this has obvious benefits for his 2020 campaign. Pushing for action puts Trump in position to compete with messaging from his potential Democratic opponents; if Trump gets legislation passed or succeeds with executive orders to advance these ideas, he can claim progress on the issue. It won’t preempt criticism entirely, but he won’t get caught embracing futility — a trap into which his party sometimes falls.


    Politically, the status quo is not sustainable in the short term. Trump may see expanded background checks as one of the more benign ways to act in relation to gun rights overall. If the NRA disagrees, they’d better come up with some positive and new action that Trump could take that would mitigate against mass shootings. And they’d better do something fast, especially in light of Lindsey Graham’s sharp observation about Trump:


    “He seems determined to do something and believes there is space to get something done this time around,” said Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.), who said he had spoken to Trump “four or five times” since the shootings. “The president has a pretty *common-sense point of view. He’s never been a sports or gun enthusiast. But he is more determined than ever to do something on his watch.”


    Do something beats do nothing at the ballot box every time, for better or worse. And Trump knows it.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    It seems the president is sold on better background checks, beyond that it's cloudy. How much do you think the past 3 shootings and all the media/Democrat candidates talk is getting to him?

    https://hotair.com/archives/ed-morri...ground-checks/
    I don't think he was ever that married to the idea that the 2nd was immutable to begin with.

    And I think this yet another area where we see that if the dumb ass left would have just dropped all the hatred early on , they could have worked with Trump and actually got some of the things they want in exchange for things like a wall etc etc.

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    Do what?
    Do nothing!
    The system is perfect as it is.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STTAB View Post
    I don't think he was ever that married to the idea that the 2nd was immutable to begin with.

    And I think this yet another area where we see that if the dumb ass left would have just dropped all the hatred early on , they could have worked with Trump and actually got some of the things they want in exchange for things like a wall etc etc.

    He has always appealed to compromise with his language, right?

    I agree with those who say that if the President said, "Air is good," the left would try to find something wrong with that.

    OTOH, The president's idea of trying to 'make a deal' includes first bellowing how he is going to 'win' and the other side is/will cave. It's not helpful or always successful. So far not with Congress, (even within his 'own' party; nor so far with Iran and China.)


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Do what?
    Do nothing!
    The system is perfect as it is.
    There is no way to tell if the system works or not. The woke leftists do everything in their power to subvert the system. Everytime there are events such as we witnessed last weekend, there are demands that the government pass a slew of new laws to address the "problem". But as soon as these laws are passed, the left ignores them or outright works against them. Take the laws prohibiting guns in possession by a felon for example. This charge is usually the first one dropped when a felon is caught with a gun in commission of a crime. And have you noticed all of the convicted felons each and every Democrat candidate pledges to release from prison once they are sworn in? Virtue signaling demands that they abhor gun violence AND show compassion for those poor folks being punished by the state for engaging in said violence. What do additional gun laws mean for the party that does not believe in the rule of law?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    He has always appealed to compromise with his language, right?

    I agree with those who say that if the President said, "Air is good," the left would try to find something wrong with that.

    OTOH, The president's idea of trying to 'make a deal' includes first bellowing how he is going to 'win' and the other side is/will cave. It's not helpful or always successful. So far not with Congress, (even within his 'own' party; nor so far with Iran and China.)
    I'll agree with you, his way isn't as effective as he and his supporters would have hoped and the reason is stupid voters. You can't threaten someone who knows if they just hold out and demonize you to stupid voters you don't really have any power.

    If enough voters stood up and said "enough , you dumb motherfuckers get something done " and forced both parties to compromise on a host of issues, then Trump is the President who wants to do that. He isn't married to ideology . I bet he would give amnesty to most of the people who are currently living peacefully yet illegally in this country if the left would agree to a wall and stricter rules on illegal immigration and fixes to our amnesty laws and such, for example. And what's more, if he did that most of his supporters would think it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. BUT what they won't be okay with is amnesty first and trust the left on the other issues because that is bullshit .

    Look at guns, he issued an EO outlawing bump stocks and the right barely made a peep. They would have screamed bloody murder if Obama had done so. On the other hand, did he get ANY credit from the left? Hell no, he only gets demonized by them.

    This couldn't be any clearer, Trump wants to deal, Trump's supporters would live with almost any deal he makes and everyone else including Republicans who don't want any deals just raise holy hell.

    It's sickening

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    It should be easier to commit people, but I have to agree in general that these laws are not likely to work:

    https://www.battleswarmblog.com/?p=41513

    Borepatch: Red Flag Laws Are Stupid and Useless
    Lots of “red flag” talk after the latest shooting panics, but Borepatch would like to remind us that such laws are stupid and useless.


    The Parkland shooter was known to be a nutcase, having been reported to the local police some four dozen times (and twice to the FBI). Nobody took action, because the local (and likely national) government agencies thought that doing so would screw up the crime statistical goals that they were trying to achieve. While it’s very early after the event, it appears that lots of people knew that the Dayton shooter was a nutcase. Nobody did anything. The Air Force dishonorably discharged a guy because he was, well, a nutcase – but forgot to update the NCIC database with this information. The nutcase was able to buy a gun and kill a bunch of people in a church.


    These are just the examples that come to mind; presumably a thorough analysis my the media or by social scientists would turn up many more examples. Of course, the media and social scientists don’t want to look into this because it would hurt their push for more gun control.


    Left unsaid: Red flag laws are not only a Second Amendment violation, but a Fifth Amendment without due process of law. legal expert Alan Dershowitz argues that we don’t have the tools tp make such laws work:


    Research shows that any group of people identified as future violent criminals will contain many more who will not be violent (false positives) than they will (true positives). More true positives mean more false ones. Such groups also fail to identify many future violent criminals (false negatives).


    We do not currently have the predictive tools needed to increase the number of true positives while reducing false positives. We may one day develop such tools, but how many false positives are we willing to tolerate until then to reduce the number of false negatives? Put another way: How many law-abiding people are we prepared to steal weapons to prevent another mass shooting?


    For those who favor strict gun control, the answer may seem obvious. They believe it is worth it for 100 or 1,000 non-violent people to lose their weapons to prevent mass shootings. But those who view gun possession as a fundamental right under the Second Amendment – as the Supreme Court ruled in District of Columbia v. Heller (2008) – frame the problem differently. They ask: Can the government deprive a citizen of a constitutional right based on a prediction?


    Red Flag laws run the risk of setting a dangerous precedent. If the government can take your weapons based on a prediction today, what will prevent it from taking your freedom based on a prediction tomorrow?


    Indeed, everywhere on Twitter this week, the left have been saying two things:


    1. We need to remove guns from the hands of racists, and
    2. Everyone who voted for Trump is a racist.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    Default Imo....

    Begin to enforce ALL OF THE PRESENT GUN LAWS. Making new laws will merely DUPLICATE the Laws we already have...BUT, Congress pretends....do not exist, and therefore.....DO NOT SUPPORT ICE, POLICE, and other LAW ENFORCEMENT....By telling the Public to DISOBEY the laws they do not like.







    I may be older than most. I may say things not everybody will like.
    But despite all of that. I will never lower myself to the level of Liars, Haters, Cheats, and Hypocrites.
    Philippians 4:13 I Can Do All Things Through Christ Who Strengthens Me:

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    https://hotair.com/archives/allahpun...consideration/

    Wayne LaPierre Hints: The NRA Will Oppose Any Of The Gun-Control Proposals Under Consideration
    ALLAHPUNDITPosted at 6:01 pm on August 8, 2019


    We already basically knew this but LaPierre blasted out an “important statement” late this afternoon confirming — in vague terms — that the NRA is a “no” on pretty much anything that’s on the table.




    Including the Trump-favored Lindsey Graham proposal for a “red-flag law,” though?




    Unclear. I think this is deliberately vague so that the NRA can save face later if Trump decides to plow ahead with that bill anyway. “Trump’s not ‘defying’ us because we never specifically opposed a red-flag law!” The statement:


    “I’m not inclined to discuss private conversations with President Trump or other key leaders on this issue,” says Wayne LaPierre, CEO and EVP of the National Rifle Association. “But I can confirm that the NRA opposes any legislation that unfairly infringes upon the rights of law-abiding citizens. The inconvenient truth is this: the proposals being discussed by many would not have prevented the horrific tragedies in El Paso and Dayton. Worse, they would make millions of law abiding Americans less safe and less able to defend themselves and their loved ones.”
    LaPierre continued, “The NRA will work in good faith to pursue real solutions to the epidemic of violence in America. But many proposals are nothing more than ‘soundbite solutions’ – which fail to address the root of the problem, confront criminal behavior, or make our communities safer.”


    A red-flag law might have prevented the Dayton shooting, at least. And as of last year, the NRA was surprisingly receptive to red-flag laws. Wait, scratch that. As of last year, the NRA’s chief lobbyist, Chris Cox, was surprisingly receptive to red-flag laws. As of about six weeks ago Cox is gone, forced out after allegedly leading a palace coup against LaPierre. LaPierre’s strong statement of opposition this afternoon could be read as an indirect rebuke to Cox. “Unlike the squishy insubordinates who tried to oust me,” LaPierre is saying to NRA members, “I’ll be a diehard in opposing new gun regulations.”


    Dana Loesch published a piece a few days ago arguing that red-flag laws are a bad idea for reasons of basic due process, replacing “innocent until proven guilty” with “somewhat guilty until proven innocent.” Point taken, counters David French, but the law already allows for certain restraints to be placed on people who’ve demonstrated that they’re capable of behaving dangerously *provided* that they have a chance in court to answer those charges.


    Domestic violence orders of protection, restraining orders, and involuntary civil commitment (for people facing an acute mental health crisis) are commonly based on actions or statements that indicate an intent to inflict future harm. While many people who express suicidal or homicidal thoughts don’t kill themselves or others, countless Americans are grateful for processes that require a person to seek mental health treatments, bar them from access to homes or workplaces, or prevent them from maintaining personal contact with threatened individuals…


    A good red-flag law is going to require that the petitioner come forward with admissible evidence, require the petitioner to carry a burden of proof, and provide advance notice of the hearing to provide the respondent with an opportunity to contest the claims against him. In emergency situations — where advance notice isn’t possible or prudent — the law should provide the owner with a prompt opportunity to contest the claims against him. And, at all times, the petitioners (those seeking the seizure order) must bear the burden of proof, and respondents should be granted the right of appeal.


    There tend to be lots of red flags with mass shooters before they go off too, he noted in a subsequent post. It’d be fascinating to see what red-state senators would do in a true clash of titans involving Trump backing red-flag laws on the one hand and LaPierre and the gun lobby opposing them on the other. Where do self-interested GOP senators fall on that test of loyalty? The question’s probably academic since Trump almost always reverts to doing what his base wants after some early initial flirtation with a centrist gesture. He’s calculated, not unreasonably, that opinion on him is so firm and divided that the key to winning next fall is to mobilize his fans, not try to persuade centrist voters who are probably unpersuadable. He’ll stay on the NRA’s good side — probably.


    But you never know with him. There’s a small but nonzero chance before this is over that he ends up trolling LaPierre on Twitter over that mansion he wanted the NRA to buy for him.


    The surreal thing about the gun debate at this moment is that it’s a fait accompli that the left will get its way on *some* basic new regulations eventually. The timetable is unclear: It might happen as early as 2021 or take until 2025 or possibly even 2029. But odds are high that Democrats will regain total control of government over the next decade, and when they do it’s a cinch that universal background checks will pass. An assault-weapons ban is not quite as certain, but also very likely. Expanding background checks is so fantastically popular in polling, in fact, that Schumer might tee it up as the first thing the new Democratic Senate decides to do, knowing and expecting that the Republican minority will filibuster. And when they do, that’ll be his cue to nuke the legislative filibuster once and for all, clearing the way for Democrats to pass the rest of their agenda with a simple majority vote. UBC is a superb issue for that precisely because so many voters on both sides support it. “We cannot let 90 percent of Americans be held hostage by 41 Republican senators,” Schumer would say, “especially on a matter of life and death like gun safety.” And that would buy him a lot of credit with Americans who would otherwise be nervous to see the filibuster go. It’s a matter of when, not if.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    OK... yes... "red flag laws" are a perfect example of the "slippery slope." They could and most certainly would be used as a tool to further disarm and undermine the 2nd amendment.

    Where do I stand? Well, I'd say that if you've been arrested and convicted of assault, which is a felony, then you should lose your 2nd amendment rights. Oh wait, you ALREADY DO.

    Then there's the mental illness issue, that's where the waters get murky. What exactly are the parameters for that? Fighting. Hell I've been in lots of fights. Should I not be allowed to own a firearm? Does violence alone constitute a reason to take someone's 2nd amendment rights away? What if you were acting in self defense and beat the shit otta someone? It's not something that's black or white that can be easily quantified. But obviously, if you're a raging lunatic, no guns, period. You're a drooling, raging, lunatic, that's easy, but where IS the line? There's where the "red flag laws" could and most CERTAINLY would be used as a tool to further disarming the public.

    Give the democrats a law that disarms the raging, drooling, clinically diagnosed lunatics and call it a day.

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    Where the laws and restrictions get muddied is when there is no documented adjudication.

    My thought is simple. If convicted of a violent crime, face restriction legally from buying, owning,
    or possessing a firearm. Or even a bow or crossbow. LEGALLY is the key word.

    If one is found to be mentally unstable is another muddy path. A Doctor / patient contract restricts,
    by law, release of information from a Psychologist or Psychiatrist. That needs to be reviewed.

    My Ex-wife became bat-shit crazy. 3 doctors were going to testify against her. She had no business
    owning a .38 caliber wheel gun. I took it away from her twice and so did her step-father.
    I have lost my mind. If found, please give it a snack and return it?

    "I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same of others"...John Wayne in "The Shootist"

    A Deplorable!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elessar View Post
    Where the laws and restrictions get muddied is when there is no documented adjudication.

    My thought is simple. If convicted of a violent crime, face restriction legally from buying, owning,
    or possessing a firearm. Or even a bow or crossbow. LEGALLY is the key word.

    If one is found to be mentally unstable is another muddy path. A Doctor / patient contract restricts,
    by law, release of information from a Psychologist or Psychiatrist. That needs to be reviewed.

    My Ex-wife became bat-shit crazy. 3 doctors were going to testify against her. She had no business
    owning a .38 caliber wheel gun. I took it away from her twice and so did her step-father.
    Actually psychiatrists are required by law to report any patient they believe may be an immediate danger to themselves or others. Psychologists I'm uncertain about.

    The problem with the 'red flag' laws from what I've been reading is that: 1. Parents, neighbors, siblings, teachers, etc., all can say, 'red flag.' Then there has to be some sort of due process before a judge.

    Kind of ripe for the problems some divorcing couples have with abuse accusations.

    2. Assuming someone really thinks there's a 'problem' you almost have to err on the side of caution. If nothing is done and something happens? So, everyone that has a temper-gets into lots of fights-could end up with these red flags.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    I think Trump is going along with this red flag stuff just to appease the left. He should tread carefully though, because he could very easily alienate one hellova a lot of his base if gets too crazy with it.

    He's railed at his rallies every time about... "protect the second amendment," well, he better be careful what he's doing. He doesn't want to have a... "read my lips, no new taxes" moment.
    Last edited by High_Plains_Drifter; 08-08-2019 at 11:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by High_Plains_Drifter View Post
    I think Trump is going along with this red flag stuff just to appease the left. He should tread carefully though, because he could very easily alienate one hellova a lot of his base if gets too crazy with it.

    He's railed at his rallies every time about... "protect the second amendment," well, he better be careful what he's doing. He doesn't want to have a... "read my lips, no new taxes" moment.
    I don't think it's possible.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    I don't think it's possible.
    Mmmm... IDK... when it comes to the 2nd amendment... you can make a lot of people mad real quick if you do something that appears to "infringe" on it.

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