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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    Sorry, what ? What 'meddling' are you talking about ?

    They are in agreement with the present direction that Boris is taking. Show me evidence of their trying to influence Boris into doing what he's doing.

    Or, do you think they're trying to stop him ? I say again: WHAT 'meddling' .. ?

    Compare the present status quo with the one that existed in Obama's day. We were gearing up for the Referendum vote. Obama tried to strong-arm us into voting to Remain in the EU ... by issuing a threat of adverse trading conditions, if we didn't do what HE wanted.

    Trump and Bolton, of course, have done no equivalent meddling, no strong-arm stuff whatsoever. All they've done is comment ... and that commentary has been to agree with our current direction.

    All of this, of course, is in line with the democratic decision our people reached, back in June 2016. A decision we had a right to make ..

    ... AND A DECISION WE NOW HAVE A RIGHT TO SEE IMPLEMENTED !!
    Promising to do x if/when y is completed is pretty comparable to what Obama was doing, in reverse.

    It's easier to 'like' meddling or whatever we call it, when it fits what we want.
    ďThe greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.Ē De Tocqueville



  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    Promising to do x if/when y is completed is pretty comparable to what Obama was doing, in reverse.

    It's easier to 'like' meddling or whatever we call it, when it fits what we want.
    Are you assuming that people voted for Brexit in the UK based on anything at all that American politicians said or did ?

    The British electorate had freedom from EU domination firmly in their minds in voting for Brexit (and we knew nothing about lucrative US-UK deals, if I'm recalling this correctly, back in June 2016). I don't accept that the Trump Administration meddled.

    The reverse has to be said about Obama.
    Socialism is a reputability deficiency disease ...

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    Are you assuming that people voted for Brexit in the UK based on anything at all that American politicians said or did ?

    The British electorate had freedom from EU domination firmly in their minds in voting for Brexit (and we knew nothing about lucrative US-UK deals, if I'm recalling this correctly, back in June 2016). I don't accept that the Trump Administration meddled.

    The reverse has to be said about Obama.
    It is genuinely astonishing that across a range of topics you are able to view near identical situations completely differently in the favour of your political preference. Ainít that something.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    Are you assuming that people voted for Brexit in the UK based on anything at all that American politicians said or did ?

    The British electorate had freedom from EU domination firmly in their minds in voting for Brexit (and we knew nothing about lucrative US-UK deals, if I'm recalling this correctly, back in June 2016). I don't accept that the Trump Administration meddled.

    The reverse has to be said about Obama.
    I assume the people of UK voted for Brexit. I'm assuming those who didn't have their panties in a bunch. I'm assuming a lot of time has gone by since the original vote. I'm assuming that the change in leadership has been felt now.

    Other than that, I'm assuming we all like the things we like and not so much those we disagree with.
    ďThe greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.Ē De Tocqueville



  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    It is genuinely astonishing that across a range of topics you are able to view near identical situations completely differently in the favour of your political preference. Ainít that something.
    Since it isn't true, I'd have to disagree. It's actually nothing at all.

    Would you care to debate your charge further ? That's to say, make your case: because, so far as I'm concerned, mine is made already.
    Socialism is a reputability deficiency disease ...

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    I assume the people of UK voted for Brexit. I'm assuming those who didn't have their panties in a bunch. I'm assuming a lot of time has gone by since the original vote. I'm assuming that the change in leadership has been felt now.

    Other than that, I'm assuming we all like the things we like and not so much those we disagree with.
    1. Yes
    2. Most definitely, & then some (we call it 'getting your knickers in a twist').
    3. Yes
    4. Not only felt, but it's got his opposition's, as I'd say, 'knickers in a twist' with a vengeance. Corbyn wants his political coup, and is starting to lash out at anyone not favouring him, personally, in the role of PM.

    That is one Leftie leader who's power mad ! He wants it by any means at all, whether or not it's arrived at democratically.

    None of this has any connection with 'interference' from America, simply because there's been none ! The days of Obama trying to blackmail us into voting as HE wants, are long gone, and we've seen no equivalent since.
    Socialism is a reputability deficiency disease ...

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    Since it isn't true, I'd have to disagree. It's actually nothing at all.

    Would you care to debate your charge further ? That's to say, make your case: because, so far as I'm concerned, mine is made already.
    You were challenged to make your case, Noir. Instead ... silence from you.

    .... there y'go .......
    Socialism is a reputability deficiency disease ...

  8. #38
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    Over 100 MPs from every party (except the DUP) have signed a letter calling for Parliament to be recalled immediately, and that there can be no further days without parliament sitting until 31st October.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    Since it isn't true, I'd have to disagree. It's actually nothing at all.

    Would you care to debate your charge further ? That's to say, make your case: because, so far as I'm concerned, mine is made already.
    Obama talks about trade with U.K. after Brexit - Meddling.
    Trump talks about trade with U.K. after Brexit - Not Meddling.
    Last edited by Noir; 08-18-2019 at 05:34 AM.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Over 100 MPs from every party (except the DUP) have signed a letter calling for Parliament to be recalled immediately, and that there can be no further days without parliament sitting until 31st October.
    First I've heard of it. What's your source ?

    Still, if true, it only goes to show how hopelessly fractured voting now is. What other reason could there be for an early resumption of Parliament, if not to try & push through legislation mandating rejection of No Deal ... to say nothing of the threatened No Confidence vote ....

    Obama talks about trade with U.K. after Brexit - Meddling.
    Trump talks about trade with U.K. after Brexit - Not Meddling.
    Correction: Obama did more than talk. He tried to blackmail us into voting in HIS preferred way. Now, that is meddling.

    Trump has issued no threats, or applied any pressure at all on the UK to do things his preferred way. He has a view, and we all know what it is. But NO threats ... NO meddling.

    Perhaps you prefer to mischaracterise, specifically when it suits you to .. ?
    Socialism is a reputability deficiency disease ...

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    First I've heard of it. What's your source ?

    Still, if true, it only goes to show how hopelessly fractured voting now is. What other reason could there be for an early resumption of Parliament, if not to try & push through legislation mandating rejection of No Deal ... to say nothing of the threatened No Confidence vote ....
    Weíve got something like 10 weeks until Brexit and many MPs would rather not spend several of those weeks on holiday or at party conferences, seems reasonable.

    Correction: Obama did more than talk. He tried to blackmail us into voting in HIS preferred way. Now, that is meddling.

    Trump has issued no threats, or applied any pressure at all on the UK to do things his preferred way. He has a view, and we all know what it is. But NO threats ... NO meddling.

    Perhaps you prefer to mischaracterise, specifically when it suits you to .. ?
    Blackmail or incentivise itís either all meddling or itís not.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Weíve got something like 10 weeks until Brexit and many MPs would rather not spend several of those weeks on holiday or at party conferences, seems reasonable.
    No source, then ?

    I can see you're worried. You'd much rather that the Commons was open for business for longer, so that MP's - and particularly, the Labour Party - had the maximum time available to push motions, establish legislation, making a No Deal Brexit hard to impossible to implement.

    That's despite the fact that the EU have no interest in a deal, beyond the one already being rammed down our throats. That's despite the fact that most if not all of those trying to make 'no deal' an impossibility, insist upon rejecting the ONE deal we DO have !!!

    You want Parliament open, for longer, for ... what ? A perpetuation of nonsense ???

    Blackmail or incentivise itís either all meddling or itís not.
    Rubbish, Noir.

    Obama flat-out meddled .. tried to blackmail us into doing what he wanted ... THAT is meddling.

    'Insentivising' ... eh ? You mean, outside powers aren't even allowed to offer us trade deals, is that your position ? You'd like that, presumably, to help make us feel irrevocably tied to Europe ....

    America's lucrative trade deal offer was only on the table as a prospect once we do what Parliament is ALREADY mandated to do. No meddling was, or is, involved. That's simply the outcome of a chain of events that the British people voted for, back in 2016. Such an offer was made literally years after that Referendum vote. So ... what meddling ??

    It's a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow, Noir. Have you ever heard of a pot of gold doing any 'meddling' .. ?
    Socialism is a reputability deficiency disease ...

  12. #42
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    You can use your preferred search engine to located the letter MPs signed if for some reason you donít think it exists even though itís been discussed in the news for several days now.

    As for the meddling - would you of been happy if Obama had said before the Brexit referendum ĎIf the U.K. chose to remain part of the EU then I will ensure that extra funding is made available to them, and that are current partnerships will be strengthenedí?
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    You can use your preferred search engine to located the letter MPs signed if for some reason you donít think it exists even though itís been discussed in the news for several days now.

    As for the meddling - would you of been happy if Obama had said before the Brexit referendum ĎIf the U.K. chose to remain part of the EU then I will ensure that extra funding is made available to them, and that are current partnerships will be strengthenedí?
    'Before the Brexit Referendum' is what's pivotal here.

    It was then, that threats against us would've counted ... and, sure enough, Obama issued one.

    Since it was literally YEARS, AFTER the Referendum, that Trump told us he'd give us good trade deals once we exited the EU .. you can't credibly claim that there was any way he could, in fact, 'meddle'.

    Remember also that, thanks to the disgusting trading straitjacket we're in, thanks to EU rules .. we cannot finalise any trade deals as a standalone national entity, until after Brexit is a fact of life. So, for Trump to say we can have some, after Brexit is completed, does nothing more than acknowledge a status quo which Trump has no say in influencing.
    Socialism is a reputability deficiency disease ...

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    'Before the Brexit Referendum' is what's pivotal here.

    It was then, that threats against us would've counted ... and, sure enough, Obama issued one.

    Since it was literally YEARS, AFTER the Referendum, that Trump told us he'd give us good trade deals once we exited the EU .. you can't credibly claim that there was any way he could, in fact, 'meddle'.

    Remember also that, thanks to the disgusting trading straitjacket we're in, thanks to EU rules .. we cannot finalise any trade deals as a standalone national entity, until after Brexit is a fact of life. So, for Trump to say we can have some, after Brexit is completed, does nothing more than acknowledge a status quo which Trump has no say in influencing.
    So if timing is the differentiator - Do you think what Pelosi is saying now is meddling?
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    So if timing is the differentiator - Do you think what Pelosi is saying now is meddling?
    It's rather difficult to see it as meddling ... UNLESS ... she's trying to place pressure on us to revoke Article 50 (which we can unilaterally do, at any time). If that's the intention -- you have your answer. If she has hopes of convincing us that Brexit may be a disaster-in-waiting unless we give Brexit up altogether, then THAT is definitely meddling !

    We voted as we did, back in June 2016. How can it be right for a foreign power to so skew trading conditions, as a deliberate act, so that we suffer for voting AS WE CHOOSE TO ?

    Our fate, I suggest, is OURS to determine .. and it cannot 'need' the likes of Pelosi to nudge it in the direction of her choosing.

    Hers ... and, Obama's. Let's not forget that.

    Trump's done nothing to interfere in our decisions. Can you say the same for America's Dems (their version of Lefties, don't forget !!) .. ?
    Last edited by Drummond; 08-22-2019 at 11:29 AM.
    Socialism is a reputability deficiency disease ...

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