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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    Again, sorry for being ignorant. So, Parliament returns and Labour calls for a no confidence vote-that is an assumption. If it fails, fine, no election and Johnson goes ahead as he planned. If it succeeds, he can still go ahead as planned, just calling for an election after Brexit. No issues with that? Why wouldn't either result in Brexit going through one way or another?
    If it fails .. not necessarily fine at all. We'd be back to seeing the Commons in session.

    There was one point during the last session when the Commons voted to order the Prime Minister to go to Brussels to ask for an extension to the Brexit deadline. Duly 'commanded' by that vote, (though in that instance she wanted that extension, herself) ... she 'obeyed' the Parliamentary mandate and made that request of them.

    Boris might find himself facing another such vote, whether he wants to or not, and losing it. He'd then be mandated by Parliamentary vote to go to Brussels and totally defy the promise of '31st October, come-what-may' he's already given.

    Here's a report of when Mrs May received her Commons 'command':

    https://www.9news.com.au/world/brexi...c-d72e3993af78

    British MPs have voted to delay Brexit beyond the scheduled date of March 29 amid dramatic scenes in the House of Commons.

    The vote came after Prime Minister Theresa May's Withdrawal Agreement was rejected for the second time on Tuesday and MPs voted the following day to rule out a no-deal Brexit.

    A motion in May's name, authorising her request for an extension to the two-year Article 50 negotiation process, was passed by 412 votes to 202 - a majority of 210.

    Only a refusal by the leaders of the 27 remaining EU states to grant the UK an extension at a Brussels summit next week could now preserve the totemic date of March 29 as Brexit Day.

    May has made clear that she will press her Agreement to a third "meaningful vote" in the Commons by March 20 in the hope of securing the support of MPs who rejected it by 230 votes in January and 149 earlier this week.

    If she succeeds, she will go to Brussels next Thursday to request a short delay to a date no later than June 30, to give herself time to get her deal through the UK parliament.
    Such a request could be tabled for a vote by any MP, however.

    As for your other scenario, one of the No Confidence motion succeeding, an election is called, then the Brexit date passes before the election date ... yes, you'd think that would be the answer. Corbyn has anticipated that outcome, though, and has been trying to fight it, as follows:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexi...xv7t?li=AA59G2

    Jeremy Corbyn has called on the UK’s most senior civil servant to intervene to stop Boris Johnson forcing a no-deal Brexit in the middle of an election campaign, amid rising signs the country is heading for the polls again this autumn.

    The Labour leader wrote to Sir Mark Sedwill, the cabinet secretary, accusing the prime minister of plotting an “unprecedented, unconstitutional and anti-democratic abuse of power”, after it emerged No 10 would be prepared to delay an election until immediately after 31 October if Johnson loses a no confidence vote among MPs.

    In his letter, Corbyn demanded urgent clarification of the rules around purdah, which are meant to prevent the government taking major policy decisions during an election campaign.
    I don't know if there's been a decision, one way or the other. It may be that the Summer Recess is delaying publication of the decision reached.
    Last edited by Drummond; 08-13-2019 at 01:27 AM.
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    If it fails .. not necessarily fine at all. We'd be back to seeing the Commons in session.

    There was one point during the last session when the Commons voted to order the Prime Minister to go to Brussels to ask for an extension to the Brexit deadline. Duly 'commanded' by that vote, (though in that instance she wanted that extension, herself) ... she 'obeyed' the Parliamentary mandate and made that request of them.

    Boris might find himself facing another such vote, whether he wants to or not, and losing it. He'd then be mandated by Parliamentary vote to go to Brussels and totally defy the promise of '31st October, come-what-may' he's already given.

    Here's a report of when Mrs May received her Commons 'command':

    https://www.9news.com.au/world/brexi...c-d72e3993af78



    Such a request could be tabled for a vote by any MP, however.

    As for your other scenario, one of the No Confidence motion succeeding, an election is called, then the Brexit date passes before the election date ... yes, you'd think that would be the answer. Corbyn has anticipated that outcome, though, and has been trying to fight it, as follows:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexi...xv7t?li=AA59G2



    I don't know if there's been a decision, one way or the other. It may be that the Summer Recess is delaying publication of the decision reached.
    So is it that your executive is subordinate to Parliament? That seems to be the case. There is no equality of the two?
    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    So is it that your executive is subordinate to Parliament? That seems to be the case. There is no equality of the two?
    You have to remember that these are not normal times.

    Normally, the governing Party would have a voting majority. Though, strictly theoretically, MP's can just table motions and have them voted on ... usually you don't have the more maverick phenomenon of everyone (from Party leaders downwards) tabling what they choose, and when they choose, and demanding a vote. There'd be no point, since anything the Government disagreed with, would automatically fail once voted on. Also, the Government would never get anything done !!!

    Besides which - again, normally - you'd have Party discipline in place, controlling MP's actions along Party lines.

    Therefore, it's normal to see the Government controlling the Parliamentary timetable, since they'd have the power to do it. It's procedurally the 'status quo'.

    But these are not normal times. Where there's barely any majority, and it can be wiped out through rebel action at any time, and in any direction, motions tabled stand a chance of success where they wouldn't otherwise. So, Labour could, in theory, table wrecking motions and have them considered, then passed to a vote.

    [I believe there's a little more to it than that, though ... the Speaker of the Commons has power of veto, though it can only be exercised on procedural grounds]

    This is why Boris approached his job as PM from day one as an upbeat unifying figure. He literally had to. The rebel element in his own Party, if it can be, needs to be neutralised. Because if it isn't, you'll get a Theresa May Mk II situation, where Party discipline is dead, control lost, and MP's adopt the radical step of actually take over the motion timetabling in the Commons.

    See this:

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/watc...ble/vp-BBVf31L

    After another chaotic night in the House of Commons, MPs voted on an amendment to take control of the parliamentary timetable, in a move that hasn’t been seen in over a century. There were 29 Tory MPs who rebelled against their party by voting for the amendment. Now a series of votes will be taken in the House of Commons, starting on Wednesday, which will put forward amendments to the withdrawal agreement. They could include a second referendum or a Norway-style deal which would leave the UK in the customs union.
    None of this is normal: it's very rare. But such has been the level of disciplinary breakdown and chaos that it happened, recently, thanks to Brexit.

    Boris has inherited this potential for chaos from his predecessor. I think that sheer force of personality may see him through these times. We shall have to see.
    Last edited by Drummond; 08-13-2019 at 02:56 AM.
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  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    So without a direct example, the best I can come up with is it would be like one of our Presidents refused to leave after their term was up and they lost an election? Is that what you are suggesting?
    Its more like impeachment- the legislature can find the executive unfit to lead the country (quote literally ‘we have no confidence in the government). This should lead to the executive dissolving and then there is a chance for a new executive to be formed if the legislature agrees on who they have confidence to lead a new government then all’s fine. However if no new executive can be made then you go to general election, to vote in a new legislature from which a new executive can be formed.

    For some reason Drummond sees the vote of no confidence that would likely lead to a general election as undemocratic, but thinks that the executive ignoring the no-confidence vote result until a time they chose to accept it is grand. (I’m sure you can imagine what Drummond would think of a liberal party were to lose a no-confidence vote, and refuse to accept it, and continue governing until they decided they wanted an election.)
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Another option that Boris has (which seems to be a topic of conversation today due to some questionable polling) is that he can shut down parliament until after Brexit has happened. Without parliament sitting they are unable to have a vote and therefore can’t declare no confidence in him.

    Again it may seem questionable in a democratic setting to shut down your legislature for a few months so the executive can fulfil their desires unchecked, but it doesn’t seem to be an unpopular option for those supporting Brexit.
    Last edited by Noir; 08-13-2019 at 10:04 AM.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Another option that Boris has (which seems to be a topic of conversation today due to some questionable polling) is that he can shut down parliament until after Brexit has happened. Without parliament sitting they are unable to have a vote and therefore can’t declare no confidence in him.

    Again it may seem questionable in a democratic setting to shut down your legislature for a few months so the executive can fulfil their desires unchecked, but it doesn’t seem to be an unpopular option for those supporting Brexit.
    Again, your system seems very difficult to keep in order, but that seems the least disruptive and on its face most legal sounding.
    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    Again, your system seems very difficult to keep in order, but that seems the least disruptive and on its face most legal sounding.
    It would certainly be the easiest way to get it all done - but it comes with problems:

    Democracy - It’s hardly considerable a democratic move to just remove all power from MPs so you can get what you want.

    Current bills - All current bills and legislation passing through parliament, whether at debating stage or with a house committee etc will be scraped.

    Future Bills - No further government business can take place until Parliament is brought back, so once that door is closed there can be no more changes can be made for Brexit no matter how much that change could benefit the U.K.

    Legality - it’s not totally clear if using these kinds of powers in this way are even legal, and a former conservative prime minister John Major has said he would request a judicial challenge if the call was made (though personally I think the executive would succeed in stamping over both the judiciary and legislature, as they are by far the post powerful branch of our government)
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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  10. #53
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    Alrighty then, enough of Brexit, which we do have another thread for; returning to rise of anti-Semetism, which is rising on both sides of the pond:
    https://www.algemeiner.com/2019/08/1...s-in-brooklyn/



    AUGUST 12, 2019 1:48 PM 0
    Three Men Attacked On Their Way to Synagogue, As Renewed Spate of Assaults Targets Orthodox Jews in Brooklyn
    by David Gerstman

    The Hate Crimes Unit of the New York City Police Department confirmed on Monday that it was investigating three assaults on orthodox Jewish men that took place earlier in the day.


    The three men were attacked early on Monday morning by unknown assailants in Brooklyn while making their way to synagogue services. Several similar incidents have been reported in recent months, with assailants targeting the increasingly fearful orthodox Jewish communities in the borough.

    ...

    The teenage attackers are still being sought. Video of the alleged assailants released by the Williamsburg Shomrim — a community security organization — showed up to four young black men gathering at a pedestrian crossing.


    The NYPD Chief of Detectives, Dermot Shea, urged anyone with information on Monday’s attacks to come forward.


    The string of assaults in the Williamsburg section of Brooklyn came on the heels of what is being treated as an antisemitic assault on Friday night in Crown Heights for which one man was arrested and charged with a hate crime.

    ...

    The police charged Dean with harassment, hate-crime assault, and criminal possession of a weapon.


    The Anti-Defamation League issued a statement on Monday praising the NYPD for “swiftly apprehending” the suspect in the two Friday night assaults.


    The statement noted that “in 2018, ADL recorded a 55% increase in anti-Semitic assaults in New York, relative to 2017.”

    ...


    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



  11. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Its more like impeachment- the legislature can find the executive unfit to lead the country (quote literally ‘we have no confidence in the government). This should lead to the executive dissolving and then there is a chance for a new executive to be formed if the legislature agrees on who they have confidence to lead a new government then all’s fine. However if no new executive can be made then you go to general election, to vote in a new legislature from which a new executive can be formed.

    For some reason Drummond sees the vote of no confidence that would likely lead to a general election as undemocratic, but thinks that the executive ignoring the no-confidence vote result until a time they chose to accept it is grand. (I’m sure you can imagine what Drummond would think of a liberal party were to lose a no-confidence vote, and refuse to accept it, and continue governing until they decided they wanted an election.)
    What do you mean, 'for some reason' ??

    You well know what the reason is.

    The most direct expression of democracy imaginable was seen in the UK in 2016. People throughout the UK voted for us to leave the EU !!

    The mandate was given, it was clear and uncompromising. Yet, enormous efforts in Parliament have been made to disrupt, sideline, even derail, any moves made which help facilitate our successful exit.

    It goes on even now, and will intensify.

    Here's the latest example:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-49320773

    A legal challenge to try to prevent Boris Johnson shutting down parliament to force through a no-deal Brexit has begun in a Scottish court.

    A group of MPs and peers wants the Court of Session in Edinburgh to rule that suspending parliament to make the UK leave the EU without a deal is "unlawful and unconstitutional".

    The prime minister has repeatedly refused to rule out such a move.

    Lord Doherty agreed to hear arguments from both sides in September.

    However he refused to accelerate the case through the Scottish courts, with the petitioners voicing fears that they may run out of time before the UK is due to leave the EU on 31 October.

    The start of the legal action came as it emerged the UK government expects a group of MPs to try to block a no-deal Brexit by attempting to pass legislation when Parliament returns next month.

    A No 10 source said they expected the challenge to come in the second week of September, when MPs are due to debate a report on Northern Ireland.
    Many in Parliament are defying the 2016 Brexit vote, by any means they can. Boris is loyal to The Peoples' Wishes, and wants them achieved, with no more delaying of it. His opposition want to frustrate or nullify efforts to carry through what The People have mandated Parliament to do, and they're working flat out to see success in their efforts to achieve that !!

    Surprise surprise, a great many of them are forms of Leftie (be it Labour, SNP, the softer version of it offered by the LibDems ...).

    Now, here's a shock. I mean, who else would have the gall to claim that measures taken to stop their insult to democratic mandate, were of themselves 'undemocratic' !!

    It Takes A Leftie.

    ... Eh, Noir ?
    Last edited by Drummond; 08-13-2019 at 12:07 PM.
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    Up too in UK:

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...security-trust

    Antisemitic incidents in UK at record high for third year in a row
    Jewish leaders express dismay at figures showing more than 100 incidents a month in 2018
    Harriet Sherwood Religion correspondent


    Thu 7 Feb 2019 07.58 EST First published on Wed 6 Feb 2019

    Jewish community leaders and politicians have condemned a third successive year with a record number of antisemitic incidents.


    Last year, 1,652 incidents, a 16% increase on 2017, were logged by the Community Security Trust, which has monitored antisemitism for 35 years and provides security to the UK Jewish community.


    The CST said the spread of incidents throughout the year, with more than 100 a month, indicated a general atmosphere of intolerance and prejudice. However, there were also spikes related to events in Gaza and the argument over antisemitism in the Labour party.


    The biggest number of incidents were in April and May (151 and 182 respectively), when scores of Palestinians were killed and hundreds injured in protests at the border fence between Gaza and Israel. May was the highest monthly total recorded since August 2014, when there was a major conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza.


    Advertisement
    In total, there were 173 incidents recorded that explicitly showed anti-Israel motivation alongside antisemitism, the CST said.


    It also recorded 148 incidents over the year that were explicitly related to arguments over alleged antisemitism in Labour, with 49 in August when there was significant media and political attention on the issue.


    Last year, there was a big increase in the proportion of antisemitic incidents that used political or extremist imagery, from 30% to 45%. More than 450 incidents involved language or imagery relating to the far right or the Nazis.


    Incidents involving social media made up 23% of the total, up from 18% the previous year. But the CST said the figures understated the scale of the problem as targeted campaigns, often involving hundreds or even thousands of tweets or posts, were logged as a single incident.




    Guardian Today: the headlines, the analysis, the debate - sent direct to you
    Read more
    The most common type of incident involved verbal antisemitic abuse directed at Jewish people, with 724 incidents. There was a fall of 17% in the number of violent antisemitic assaults, from 149 in 2017 to 123 last year, including one classified by the CST as “extreme violence”. There were 78 incidents of damage or desecration to Jewish property.


    Three-quarters of the total number of incidents were recorded in Greater London and Greater Manchester, home to the two largest Jewish communities in the UK.


    Marie van der Zyl, the president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, said the figures were very worrying for Jews living in the UK. “Overall, the UK remains a happy place for its Jewish community, but this reports shows that there is no room for complacency,” she said.


    “Defeating the evil of antisemitism will take a concerted effort by the country’s political leadership, in all parties, and civil society.”


    David Delew, the CST’s chief executive, said the figures reflected “deepening divides in our country and our politics. Jewish people are on the receiving end of this hatred, but it must not be left to us to tackle alone.”


    A meeting with Jewish community leaders and the Home Office, chaired by the home secretary, Sajid Javid, is to discuss how to tackle antisemitism.


    Javid said: “All acts of antisemitism are utterly despicable and have no place in society … We are doing all we can to rid society of these poisonous views.”


    John Mann, the Labour chairman of the all-party parliamentary group against antisemitism, said: “Sadly, these figures are not surprising; indeed, they are predictable … It is now time for everyone in parliament to stand up, be counted and to stand alongside the CST in the fight against antisemitism.”
    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    That last paragraph of your link's text is a joke. That ..

    John Mann, the Labour chairman of the all-party parliamentary group against antisemitism, said: “Sadly, these figures are not surprising; indeed, they are predictable … It is now time for everyone in parliament to stand up, be counted and to stand alongside the CST in the fight against antisemitism.”
    ...... from someone who's part of the LABOUR Party ??

    Clearly, Labour are trying to sanitise their image when statements like that one are issued.

    Here's just one example of the true nature of Labour (there are, of course, many others !).

    https://antisemitism.org.il/en/151132/

    London – A Jordanian MP who has made virulently antisemitic comments was welcomed into the Palace of Westminster last week by a Labour Shadow Minister.

    Yahya Al-Saud, who is notorious for praising terrorism in Palestine, was greeted at Portcullis House by Labour frontbencher Fabian Hamilton, shadow minister for peace and disarmament.

    The controversial Jordanian was ushered into Parliament for a series of meetings, adding fresh fuel to claims that anti-Semitism is not being taken seriously by the party. His visit also prompted campaigners with the Jordanian Opposition Coalition to write to Home Secretary Sajid Javid, questioning why the MP was allowed entry into Britain.

    The campaigners detailed a catalogue of antisemitic comments by Mr Al-Saud, including an open letter he sent in 2017 to Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

    In it, he wrote: ‘What pains me is this Arab silence towards your [Netanyahu’s] childish behaviour, even though those Arabs could extract this Jewish tumour [Israel] which has occupied the body of Palestine.

    ‘Be a tyrant as you like [Netanyahu], I swear to almighty God, I and all Muslims know that God shall liberate Palestine at the hands of jihadis in Jerusalem… we are waiting for the day when trees shall call on us saying, “O you Muslim, here’s a Jew behind me, come and kill him.” ’

    After meeting Leeds North East MP Mr Hamilton, Mr Al-Saud also spoke with Lib Dem and Scottish National parliamentarians.

    Last night, a Labour party spokesman said: ‘As part of his shadow ministerial role, Fabian Hamilton met with a group of Jordanian MPs to discuss the Middle East peace process and Jordan’s role in the region.’
    You invite a 'notorious' TERRORIST SUPPORTER AND ISRAEL-HATER into talks which have, as their focus, a 'Middle East peace process' .. ?? That's like inviting Hitler to speak at a meeting held by, and for, a pacifists' organisation. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

    Note that the SNP and LibDems also took time out to consult with that individual. Lefties, all ......
    Last edited by Drummond; 08-13-2019 at 12:42 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    That last paragraph of your link's text is a joke. That ..



    ...... from someone who's part of the LABOUR Party ??

    Clearly, Labour are trying to sanitise their image when statements like that one are issued.

    Here's just one example of the true nature of Labour (there are, of course, many others !).

    https://antisemitism.org.il/en/151132/
    Same here, the most vehement of the anti-semites are from the democrat party.
    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    Same here, the most vehement of the anti-semites are from the democrat party.
    Exactly -- absolutely no surprise there.

    I firmly believe that Leftie groupings across the world are just clones of each other. They only appear to have differences because they blend in to the political environments they operate within.
    Socialism is a reputability deficiency disease ...

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    I don't think anyone is surprised to learn that the Fourth Reich is at heart a Jew hate group.

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