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    Default I, me, mine.

    An extremely obvious observation, but presented with a clarity that I felt worth sharing.

    I, me, mine - thoughts of Alan Wallace


    ————————————

    I want you to know that this is my watch, my watch, my wife gave it to me for Christmas. It’s a nice watch, a $50 watch, but it’s a good one. My watch, right, so if you take it you took something of mine. So imagine somebody takes it and runs off to Buenos Aires. I’m thinking ‘he took my watch, he took my watch’ at what point exactly does it not become my watch any longer? He got clean away, the police ran after him, but they missed him at the airport, I lost my watch, he has my watch. He says ‘hah, no, it is my watch’. When did it become my watch? and when did it stop becoming my watch?

    When we say so.

    People give away their livers while they’re still alive, and kidneys, and blood, and skin...when does it stop becoming theirs? So this whole notion that possession or myness is something built into...’this is my country’ ‘this is my ethnic group’ ‘this is my possession’ ‘this is my memory’ - people lose their memory, then whose is it? Who does that memory belong to then?

    This notion of I and mine, and therefore not I and not mine... I and not I, my side and not my side. That side - they can all be buried. My side - I will protect unto the death, all projection, all projection.

    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    An extremely obvious observation, but presented with a clarity that I felt worth sharing.

    I, me, mine - thoughts of Alan Wallace


    ————————————

    I want you to know that this is my watch, my watch, my wife gave it to me for Christmas. It’s a nice watch, a $50 watch, but it’s a good one. My watch, right, so if you take it you took something of mine. So imagine somebody takes it and runs off to Buenos Aires. I’m thinking ‘he took my watch, he took my watch’ at what point exactly does it not become my watch any longer? He got clean away, the police ran after him, but they missed him at the airport, I lost my watch, he has my watch. He says ‘hah, no, it is my watch’. When did it become my watch? and when did it stop becoming my watch?

    When we say so.

    People give away their livers while they’re still alive, and kidneys, and blood, and skin...when does it stop becoming theirs? So this whole notion that possession or myness is something built into...’this is my country’ ‘this is my ethnic group’ ‘this is my possession’ ‘this is my memory’ - people lose their memory, then whose is it? Who does that memory belong to then?

    This notion of I and mine, and therefore not I and not mine... I and not I, my side and not my side. That side - they can all be buried. My side - I will protect unto the death, all projection, all projection.

    So no one "owns" anything.... good to know. You just solved everything! Your clothes are not yours, your other possessions are not yours, and your life is not yours. Good to know.
    I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
    Thomas Jefferson


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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    An extremely obvious observation, but presented with a clarity that I felt worth sharing.

    I, me, mine - thoughts of Alan Wallace


    ————————————

    I want you to know that this is my watch, my watch, my wife gave it to me for Christmas. It’s a nice watch, a $50 watch, but it’s a good one. My watch, right, so if you take it you took something of mine. So imagine somebody takes it and runs off to Buenos Aires. I’m thinking ‘he took my watch, he took my watch’ at what point exactly does it not become my watch any longer? He got clean away, the police ran after him, but they missed him at the airport, I lost my watch, he has my watch. He says ‘hah, no, it is my watch’. When did it become my watch? and when did it stop becoming my watch?

    When we say so.

    People give away their livers while they’re still alive, and kidneys, and blood, and skin...when does it stop becoming theirs? So this whole notion that possession or myness is something built into...’this is my country’ ‘this is my ethnic group’ ‘this is my possession’ ‘this is my memory’ - people lose their memory, then whose is it? Who does that memory belong to then?

    This notion of I and mine, and therefore not I and not mine... I and not I, my side and not my side. That side - they can all be buried. My side - I will protect unto the death, all projection, all projection.

    Intellectually dishonest semantics.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    Quote Originally Posted by CSM View Post
    So no one "owns" anything.... good to know. You just solved everything! Your clothes are not yours, your other possessions are not yours, and your life is not yours. Good to know.
    This is an area in which I am very unsophisticated - and I think my response will reflect that, as I have tried to write this response several times and failed. Nonetheless I find the passage to reflect a sentiment that I can not reiterate without diminishing.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Even animals will defend what is “ theirs”. All the philosophizing in the world won’t change nature; human and otherwise.
    After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box - Author unknown

    “Unfortunately, the truth is now whatever the media say it is”
    -Abbey

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    It will always be my watch, until I give it away or throw it away. Stealing it does not make it theirs. Ever. Period.
    "I am allergic to piety, it makes me break out in rash judgements." - Penn Jillette
    "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with a lot of pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
    "The man who invented the telescope found out more about heaven than the closed eyes of prayer ever discovered." - Robert G. Ingersoll

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    Quote Originally Posted by hjmick View Post
    It will always be my watch, until I give it away or throw it away. Stealing it does not make it theirs. Ever. Period.
    Stolen (like the watch) or given (like the kidney) or forgotten (like the memory) when does something become (or cease to be) “mine”?
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abbey View Post
    Even animals will defend what is “ theirs”. All the philosophizing in the world won’t change nature; human and otherwise.
    We are animals like them, subject to the same perception.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    An extremely obvious observation, but presented with a clarity that I felt worth sharing.

    I, me, mine - thoughts of Alan Wallace


    ————————————

    I want you to know that this is my watch, my watch, my wife gave it to me for Christmas. It’s a nice watch, a $50 watch, but it’s a good one. My watch, right, so if you take it you took something of mine. So imagine somebody takes it and runs off to Buenos Aires. I’m thinking ‘he took my watch, he took my watch’ at what point exactly does it not become my watch any longer? He got clean away, the police ran after him, but they missed him at the airport, I lost my watch, he has my watch. He says ‘hah, no, it is my watch’. When did it become my watch? and when did it stop becoming my watch?

    When we say so.

    People give away their livers while they’re still alive, and kidneys, and blood, and skin...when does it stop becoming theirs? So this whole notion that possession or myness is something built into...’this is my country’ ‘this is my ethnic group’ ‘this is my possession’ ‘this is my memory’ - people lose their memory, then whose is it? Who does that memory belong to then?

    This notion of I and mine, and therefore not I and not mine... I and not I, my side and not my side. That side - they can all be buried. My side - I will protect unto the death, all projection, all projection.

    That makes no sense whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by CSM View Post
    So no one "owns" anything.... good to know. You just solved everything! Your clothes are not yours, your other possessions are not yours, and your life is not yours. Good to know.
    Well placed sarcasm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    Intellectually dishonest semantics.
    Exactly!
    I have lost my mind. If found, please give it a snack and return it?

    "I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same of others"...John Wayne in "The Shootist"

    A Deplorable!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Stolen (like the watch) or given (like the kidney) or forgotten (like the memory) when does something become (or cease to be) “mine”?

    It becomes "mine" when I buy it or when someone gives it to me. It ceases to be mine when I say so. Theft does not make it yours.
    Last edited by hjmick; 08-26-2019 at 06:13 PM.
    "I am allergic to piety, it makes me break out in rash judgements." - Penn Jillette
    "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with a lot of pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
    "The man who invented the telescope found out more about heaven than the closed eyes of prayer ever discovered." - Robert G. Ingersoll

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Stolen (like the watch) or given (like the kidney) or forgotten (like the memory) when does something become (or cease to be) “mine”?
    "Forgotten" WHAT? I don't recall ever seeing forgetfulness as a legitimate reason to change ownership. I've never seen the "finders-keepers" defense work, but that would depend on the law where you are, I guess. Here? Trip to Bexar County for theft. If it does not belong to you, it is not yours to take.

    HJMick covered the other two in his post.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Stolen (like the watch) or given (like the kidney) or forgotten (like the memory) when does something become (or cease to be) “mine”?
    Noir, I know your sensibilities - certainly compared to mine ! - are VERY significantly to the Left of mine. Even so ... did you mean your argument as a joke ?

    Are you so wedded to the concept of an individual not mattering as one, that you likewise reject the notion of individual ownership, beyond certain limitations based upon immediacy ?? In your example of the watch, the watch was stolen. Not given. STOLEN. Which means you have your answer. The thief doesn't cease to be one, by keeping that watch. It is NEVER HIS PROPERTY.

    [Try this as an example: the Great Train Robbery, back in the 1960's. Ronald Biggs, a member of the gang, went (fled) to another country, to escape capture and our justice. In his example ... did his share of the loot become 'his' because he'd managed to hold on to it ? Were our police wrong to arrest him, many years later, the first chance they had ?]

    A memory, if forgotten, can be re-remembered. The memory never ceased to be 'owned' by the person it originated from. What if an inventor remembers a design for a new device .. then forgets it ? If somebody else becomes aware of that design and then takes full credit for its invention, that, too, is thievery (and a lie).

    As for your kidney donation example .. did you offer it in the realisation that in our part of the world, the law on being a kidney donor is (in your case) likely to be reversed soon ? In Wales .. it HAS been. 'Presumed Consent' now rules. Now, in Wales, you have to FEND OFF organ 'grabs' by making a legally enforceable declaration that you want no such donations to ever happen. The absence of that declaration allows the mere PRESUMPTION of agreement to be a legal default.

    I daresay that Northern Ireland will follow suit one day soon. There's already talk of England taking this up.

    So, let me ask YOU, Noir: is your own body, YOURS ?? Or, does the Almighty State 'own' you, JUST because THEY 'say so' ... a penance for your daring to so much as EXIST ??
    Last edited by Drummond; 08-26-2019 at 09:18 PM.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    An extremely obvious observation, but presented with a clarity that I felt worth sharing.

    I, me, mine - thoughts of Alan Wallace


    ————————————

    I want you to know that this is my watch, my watch, my wife gave it to me for Christmas. It’s a nice watch, a $50 watch, but it’s a good one. My watch, right, so if you take it you took something of mine. So imagine somebody takes it and runs off to Buenos Aires. I’m thinking ‘he took my watch, he took my watch’ at what point exactly does it not become my watch any longer? He got clean away, the police ran after him, but they missed him at the airport, I lost my watch, he has my watch. He says ‘hah, no, it is my watch’. When did it become my watch? and when did it stop becoming my watch?

    When we say so.

    People give away their livers while they’re still alive, and kidneys, and blood, and skin...when does it stop becoming theirs? So this whole notion that possession or myness is something built into...’this is my country’ ‘this is my ethnic group’ ‘this is my possession’ ‘this is my memory’ - people lose their memory, then whose is it? Who does that memory belong to then?

    This notion of I and mine, and therefore not I and not mine... I and not I, my side and not my side. That side - they can all be buried. My side - I will protect unto the death, all projection, all projection.

    The watch is mine until I sell or give away. My liver is mine until it is removed from my body because I have given it away. Losing my memory, or losing anything, does not mean it is no longer mine. It has just been misplaced.

    My children will always be my children, even when they are adults.

    Seems to me that socialism is all about divesting us of ownership of anything and these thoughts are just sowing seeds of doubt.
    If the freedom of speech is taken away
    then dumb and silent we may be led,
    like sheep to the slaughter.


    George Washington (1732-1799) First President of the USA.

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    Regarding some of the above posts - this has nothing to do with socialism etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    So, let me ask YOU, Noir: is your own body, YOURS ??


    That is the right question, and I think the answer has to be no. “My” body is not the same body I had yesterday, nor will it be the same tomorrow. In what sense is your body the same as the one you occupied when you were 15?

    Are you your body, or are you inside it?
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SassyLady View Post
    The watch is mine until I sell or give away. My liver is mine until it is removed from my body because I have given it away. Losing my memory, or losing anything, does not mean it is no longer mine. It has just been misplaced.

    My children will always be my children, even when they are adults.

    Seems to me that socialism is all about divesting us of ownership of anything and these thoughts are just sowing seeds of doubt.
    I believe you're right as far as this goes ... but, as I see it, Socialism is meant to dis-empower the individual, AS one. What more complete way of doing it but to nullify any sense of 'self', so that the individual merely becomes raw material for those running the society on Socialist 'principles' ... ?

    I think we're seeing this in Noir's current argument. The line is taken that individual rights, even individual identity, is so fluid as to be supposedly 'meaningless' ... and anyone totally, 100% buying into that would be prime fodder for control by an outside agency.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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