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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    At long last the Conservative government have published a proposal for the Irish border, and boy is it a doozy

    https://assets.publishing.service.go...atory_Note.pdf
    You'd rather it failed ?

    I can predict that the Labour Party will oppose it. Why ? Because Labour are busily proceeding with their wrecking spree.

    Labour threw out Mrs May's deal no less than THREE times. The reason ? The backstop clause.

    Boris has carved that clause up, removed it from contention. Parliament SHOULD have altogether more reason to ratify this latest version of a deal than they had the last one.

    The truth, though, is that although the Labour opposition insist we should only leave the EU with a deal .. Labour will happily oppose any that surfaces. Watch them oppose this one.

    I daresay that the EU will do likewise. They wanted the backstop, because its inclusion worked for them. Its absence will not please them.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

  2. #122
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    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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  4. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    If you ask me how we are going to grow the UK economy, I will tell you that it is by raising the productivity of the whole of the UK. Not with socialism, not with deranged and ruinous plans borrowed from the playbook of Bolivarian revolutionary Venezuela. But by creating the economic platform for dynamic free market capitalism.Yes, you heard it right: capitalism. And when did you last hear a Tory leader talk about capitalism? We are the party of the NHS precisely because we are the party of capitalism not because we shun it, or despise it and we understand the vital symmetry at the heart of the modern British economy between a dynamic enterprise culture and great public services”

    Hearing Johnson proudly proclaim he is a free market capitalist and (in the same breath) that his party is the party of national socialised healthcare is a good reminder of how empty of meaning his words are.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

  5. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    You'd rather it failed ?

    I can predict that the Labour Party will oppose it. Why ? Because Labour are busily proceeding with their wrecking spree.

    Labour threw out Mrs May's deal no less than THREE times. The reason ? The backstop clause.

    Boris has carved that clause up, removed it from contention. Parliament SHOULD have altogether more reason to ratify this latest version of a deal than they had the last one.

    The truth, though, is that although the Labour opposition insist we should only leave the EU with a deal .. Labour will happily oppose any that surfaces. Watch them oppose this one.

    I daresay that the EU will do likewise. They wanted the backstop, because its inclusion worked for them. Its absence will not please them.
    I’d rather they didn’t have a proposal that was dead on arrival.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

  6. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    @Kathianne ... I do ! Thanks for posting this. Some classic Boris humour there ... not untypical of other speeches he'd made to Conference in years past ...

    I'd already seen this one ... I recorded the live BBC transmission of his speech. Your clip captures some of the best of it, though.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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  8. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    I’d rather they didn’t have a proposal that was dead on arrival.
    Oh, yes, you would !!

    In Leftie eyes, Noir, EVERY deal proposal will be seen in that way. BE HONEST. Corbyn will never approve ANY deal coming from Boris, regardless of what's in it. I absolutely promise you that. The sky is blue. The Earth is round. The Moon is not made of cheese. And, Labour will oppose any Brexit deal out there, now or at any time.

    The Left is implacably opposed to any deal coming from the Conservatives, while simultaneously insisting that the UK must leave with an agreed deal !! Theirs is a wrecking agenda. It always was. It always will be. GUARANTEED.

    Why ?

    Well, quite apart from enjoying and savouring all the political vandalism involved (they are creatures of the Left, after all !) ... THEY WANT TO OVERTURN THE 2016 REFERENDUM RESULT. That is their only intention. That is all they'll dedicate themselves to do.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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  10. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    @Kathianne ... I do ! Thanks for posting this. Some classic Boris humour there ... not untypical of other speeches he'd made to Conference in years past ...

    I'd already seen this one ... I recorded the live BBC transmission of his speech. Your clip captures some of the best of it, though.
    Posting this just for comic effect. Classic Boris ...

    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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  12. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    If you ask me how we are going to grow the UK economy, I will tell you that it is by raising the productivity of the whole of the UK. Not with socialism, not with deranged and ruinous plans borrowed from the playbook of Bolivarian revolutionary Venezuela. But by creating the economic platform for dynamic free market capitalism.Yes, you heard it right: capitalism. And when did you last hear a Tory leader talk about capitalism? We are the party of the NHS precisely because we are the party of capitalism not because we shun it, or despise it and we understand the vital symmetry at the heart of the modern British economy between a dynamic enterprise culture and great public services”

    Hearing Johnson proudly proclaim he is a free market capitalist and (in the same breath) that his party is the party of national socialised healthcare is a good reminder of how empty of meaning his words are.
    If you truly are from anywhere at all in the UK, you'll know as I do that no British politician can be openly hostile to the NHS without committing political suicide.

    And if you think the Conservative Party fails to be pro-Capitalism, can you name a UK Party that is more pro-Capitalist than the Conservatives ? Look at who comprises the Party, for God's sake .. how many MP's of theirs are also successful business people ?

    Indeed, the new post-austerity era they're embarking on will be a breath of fresh air to them. Austerity measures were only imposed in the first place to counter all of Labour's sabotage, pre-2010 election time. It was nothing more or less than good housekeeping, but forced through force of circumstances.

    The Conservative strategy won through (of course !) ... and so, here we are, with funds available for those sectors of the economy and our very society that need it. Including - yes - the NHS, which, as we all know, will forever need cash injections .. because of what it is, how it operates ....
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

  13. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    If you truly are from anywhere at all in the UK, you'll know as I do that no British politician can be openly hostile to the NHS without committing political suicide.

    And if you think the Conservative Party fails to be pro-Capitalism, can you name a UK Party that is more pro-Capitalist than the Conservatives ? Look at who comprises the Party, for God's sake .. how many MP's of theirs are also successful business people ?

    Indeed, the new post-austerity era they're embarking on will be a breath of fresh air to them. Austerity measures were only imposed in the first place to counter all of Labour's sabotage, pre-2010 election time. It was nothing more or less than good housekeeping, but forced through force of circumstances.

    The Conservative strategy won through (of course !) ... and so, here we are, with funds available for those sectors of the economy and our very society that need it. Including - yes - the NHS, which, as we all know, will forever need cash injections .. because of what it is, how it operates ....
    The libertarian party of the U.K. is certainly more free-market capitalist than the Conservative party.

    Im glad we’ve been able to save these much needed funds during the Conservative austerity years - what was our national debt before austerity as compared to the national debt today?
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    “The Court of Session in Scotland has been told that Government documents say the Prime Minister will seek an extension from the EU if no EU Withdrawal Agreement is reached by 19 October”

    via Beth Rigby, Sky News.

    And here I was thinking we’d find Johnson dead in a ditch...
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    The libertarian party of the U.K. is certainly more free-market capitalist than the Conservative party.

    Im glad we’ve been able to save these much needed funds during the Conservative austerity years - what was our national debt before austerity as compared to the national debt today?
    I've debated on this forum before about the Libertarians. My conclusion was (backed up with material) that the Libertarians were, and are, LEFT wing. So it beggars belief that they are in any sense more Conservative than the Conservatives.

    Try comparing the stated aspirations of Libertarians with what Trade Unions declare are THEIR core beliefs. Then, tell me I'm wrong !

    As for the national debt .. it shot up as a result of reckless and uncontrolled borrowing, courtesy of Labour wreckers. Such borrowing incurs a debt following from interest payments demanded from those lending such funds. In attempting to pay off debts, the interest must be paid, too.

    Such interest obligations cripple the effectiveness of repayments. But, the Conservatives, in trying to clean up after Labour, have been saddled with that obligation. They didn't create that obligation: they're merely a victim of it.

    As are we all -- courtesy of Labour vandalism.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

  16. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    “The Court of Session in Scotland has been told that Government documents say the Prime Minister will seek an extension from the EU if no EU Withdrawal Agreement is reached by 19 October”

    via Beth Rigby, Sky News.

    And here I was thinking we’d find Johnson dead in a ditch...
    If true (it appears to be ?) .. it is indeed most disappointing.

    Still, consider the position Boris is in, courtesy of disgusting Labour vandals.

    Boris has done (is still doing) his very best to conclude Brexit by 31st October, as promised. He respects the UK voting public to an extent that, obviously, none of his opposition do. Now, thanks to being reputable and decent enough a politician to fight for the rights of the voting public, here he is, facing a law designed to break him of that reputable stance.

    Question: what right, or freedom, does even a PM have to defy the law of the land ?

    The law in question is one passed by Parliament, and its purpose is to force defiance upon the Government of the voting Public. To force contempt of them.

    It appears that Boris is now minded to obey the law. As opposed to defying it.

    I think that we'll leave at the end of October, regardless. It's one thing to send a letter. But that letter, as Boris and our Government well knows, doesn't have the power to govern events. Indeed, the UK itself has never had that power. The EU also does, AND, these extensions only serve to exhibit weakness in the EU's eyes .. as Boris points out, whenever he refers to a 'Surrender Bill'.

    Perhaps the EU will say, 'No, we'll grant you no new extension'. Or, perhaps they'll say, 'Have an extension .. but it'll be for far longer than the 3 months you want. Agree to a one year, or two year, extension .. OR, none at all'.

    ... 'Nice', eh ??

    So, here's a question for you, Noir. Let's say that Boris sends 'his' letter (in reality, it's Labour's letter, since they'll have dictated its very existence). The EU reads that letter, and responds with 'You may have AN extension, but not for 3 months. Our offer is a 12 month extension, only that. Take it or leave it'.

    My question is this: the 'surrender bill' only provides for a 3 month extension. If Boris agreed a 12 month extension, WOULD HE BE BREAKING THE LAW ?

    I think he would be, which would then see Parliament desperately scrabble about to pass a new law to permit a 12 month extension ... SOMETHING THEY ABSOLUTELY REFUSE TO DO, TO BRING US OUT BY 31ST OCTOBER, IN DEFERENCE TO THE VOTING PUBLIC'S WISHES !!

    H'm.

    When, one day, all this ends .. Labour will have a VERY hard time convincing the People that they have any legitimate place in a democratic system. Maybe it'll kill off Labour entirely.

    If so, it'll be richly deserved.
    Last edited by Drummond; 10-04-2019 at 11:57 AM.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

  17. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    So it beggars belief that they are in any sense more Conservative than the Conservatives.
    I said they are more Free-Market Capitalist. Do you reject that?

    As for the national debt .. it shot up as a result of reckless and uncontrolled borrowing, courtesy of Labour wreckers. Such borrowing incurs a debt following from interest payments demanded from those lending such funds. In attempting to pay off debts, the interest must be paid, too.
    Since the Conservatives took power, 9 years ago, the percentage of public sector debt over GDP rose from 40% to over 80%, where it has been for the last 5 years. U.K. net borrowing (in both real terms and against a % of GDP) hasn't been negative since 2001. So how do we have “funds available for those sectors of the economy and our very society that need it.” And how many years of consecutive Conservative governments does it take before the become reasonable for increasing the National Debt?
    Last edited by Noir; 10-04-2019 at 12:00 PM.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

  18. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    I said they are more Free-Market Capitalist. Do you reject that?
    It didn't take me long to find material which questions whether Libertarians are Capitalists, AT ALL.

    I'll post you a link. I'm not at all sure I agree with their conclusion that Capitalism can run contrary to individual freedoms ... still, this piece is clear that you can't equate Capitalism with Libertarianism without serious questions arising, at absolute best.

    Entitled, 'The Difference Between Capitalism and Libertarianism' .... an excerpt ...

    http://www.differencebetween.net/mis...ibertarianism/

    In practice, however, capitalism achieves the opposite of what libertarian law promotes. In any nation that implements capitalism, citizens are given the right to amass exchangeable commodities such as money or even property (Klein, 2007). This then inspires wealthy proprietors to diversify into the several industries, search for cheaper raw materials, and even cut wages in an effort to realize more profits. This naturally infringes on the rights of workers. In legal terms, capitalism prioritizes objective laws over citizen’s rights. Crony capitalism is today common in many nations due to the dedication that corporations show to their shareholders even when their activities negatively affect surrounding community or even company workers (Kang, 2002).

    It is inaccurate to assert that capitalism, like libertarianism, is based on the promotion of individual rights because modern capitalism has proved that it is shareholders such as corporate executives, and not ordinary citizens, who benefit most from free market trade.
    I think you need to rethink your premise. Better yet, just junk it ...

    Since the Conservatives took power, 9 years ago, the percentage of public sector debt over GDP rose from 40% to over 80%, where it has been for the last 5 years. U.K. net borrowing (in both real terms and against a % of GDP) hasn't been negative since 2001. So how do we have “funds available for those sectors of the economy and our very society that need it.” And how many years of consecutive Conservative governments does it take before the become reasonable for increasing the National Debt?
    OK, Noir. How about some HONEST argumentation ?

    .. Fat chance ?

    https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/u...ebt_chart.html

    Read it for yourself.

    You talk about 'the percentage of public sector debt'. You date this from the time, in 2010, when the Conservatives took Office. YET ... the material in my link shows that your 40 percent figure doesn't start in 2010, but instead, 2008 .. the year of the Crash.

    Nice try, Noir. You tried to foist the whole of UK debt ever since 2008, upon the Conservatives, who took over in 2010. In truth ... check the graph. It shows a figure in 2010 for well over SIXTY percent. Not FORTY percent.

    So, you're not debating honestly. As I said, 'nice try'. But I'm not going to indulge in any debate with you where you misrepresent the so-called 'truth' of a case you put.

    5/10. Must do better.

    Debate over.
    Last edited by Drummond; 10-04-2019 at 12:49 PM.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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