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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    We are governed by a representative parliamentary democracy. Not direct democracy.

    Imagine someone saying that the Electoral College derailed the ‘will of the American people’ because Trump ended up president rather than Clinton who got a few million more votes.

    That's a TERRIBLE comparison.

    A more apt comparison would be to say look at the all the idiotic Republicans who REFUSED to fund the wall when they had full control of both houses of Congress when it was quite clear that Trump was elected by the will of the people wanting that wall.

    And look at what it cost those Republicans. The House.

    I wish we had a mechanism to dissolve Congress when they didn't follow the will of the people.

  2. #92
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    Not much to report other than the U.K. has still not proposed what they’re going to do about the Northern Irish border, and Johnson refused to hold a joint press conference with the Prime Minster of Luxembourg, because protestors were making too much noise
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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  4. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Not much to report other than the U.K. has still not proposed what they’re going to do about the Northern Irish border, and Johnson refused to hold a joint press conference with the Prime Minster of Luxembourg, because protestors were making too much noise
    I read that he asked them to move the debate inside, but no. Then the Brexit guy did his own 'empty chair' debate. The only real criticism I read about Johnson was that he shouldn't have done the 'tough guy' talk and then not show. He had reasons to not show, but looked weak after his boasts.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    I read that he asked them to move the debate inside, but no. Then the Brexit guy did his own 'empty chair' debate. The only real criticism I read about Johnson was that he shouldn't have done the 'tough guy' talk and then not show. He had reasons to not show, but looked weak after his boasts.
    You make fair points, but then ... tactics may also be involved. I've seldom seen any PM receive such concentrated and relentless criticism at home as Boris has ... and this within a context that Boris must consider, that of an impending election.

    Boris has pushed the idea that he's capable of getting cooperation from the EU, and that things aren't static. He doubtless thought that broadcasts transmitted back to the UK showing nothing but enmity not only sent the wrong image, but were a gift to his political opponents.

    As it turned out, the Luxembourg PM was himself highly unhelpful in his own remarks !!

    I thought it extremely 'rich' that this joker tried to deflect blame away from the EU side in all of this !! During 'negotiations', they wasted nearly two years with obstruction, forever rejecting any proposals our side offered. Then, when they did see fit to cobble a 'deal' together, it turned out to be so shoddy that Commons voting against it reached historically high levels for any vote conducted there !

    The EU's response ? Rejected or not, the 'deal' had to stand as it was. No renegotiation would happen. Intransigence was 'king'.

    We've seen no tangible evidence of the EU offering us anything different to this day.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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  7. #95
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    What is the UKs proposal for the Northern Irish border?
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    You make fair points, but then ... tactics may also be involved. I've seldom seen any PM receive such concentrated and relentless criticism at home as Boris has ... and this within a context that Boris must consider, that of an impending election.

    Boris has pushed the idea that he's capable of getting cooperation from the EU, and that things aren't static. He doubtless thought that broadcasts transmitted back to the UK showing nothing but enmity not only sent the wrong image, but were a gift to his political opponents.

    As it turned out, the Luxembourg PM was himself highly unhelpful in his own remarks !!

    I thought it extremely 'rich' that this joker tried to deflect blame away from the EU side in all of this !! During 'negotiations', they wasted nearly two years with obstruction, forever rejecting any proposals our side offered. Then, when they did see fit to cobble a 'deal' together, it turned out to be so shoddy that Commons voting against it reached historically high levels for any vote conducted there !

    The EU's response ? Rejected or not, the 'deal' had to stand as it was. No renegotiation would happen. Intransigence was 'king'.

    We've seen no tangible evidence of the EU offering us anything different to this day.
    First off, they weren't 'my points,' I just read and shared.

    I do believe the EU's behavior is the reason that all the parties are there, unable to really work together?


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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  10. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    First off, they weren't 'my points,' I just read and shared.

    I do believe the EU's behavior is the reason that all the parties are there, unable to really work together?
    H'm .. the only thing the EU has shown itself to be capable of is intransigence, coupled with an insistence that WE work with THEM, in an unequal so-called 'partnership'. If it were otherwise, we'd have seen them be a lot more open about renegotiation than they have been.

    Our own politicians are so power-drunk that they think they exercise power they don't have. Talk of 'not leaving without a deal' ... well, WHAT deal ? The EU has still only offered the one deal (the one they refuse to ratify), and the EU consider us to be at fault for not agreeing it.

    I really don't know what to say (as must be obvious ?) that's of any use. I don't believe that the EU will usefully bend to the reality of our position, and probably not at all. Boris's efforts, whatever they actually are, I doubt will come to anything. Yet, his opposition here insist he must 'get a deal' for us to leave, and they're backing that with legal mandate.

    I've no idea how this'll play out. Nobody does. Will Boris dig his heels in, and end up defying the law, by keeping to his promise to The People ? Or, will Parliament force him to renege on that ?

    Who knows.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    What is the UKs proposal for the Northern Irish border?
    You think I am privy to the negotiating contact Boris has with the EU ? These things (to whatever extent they are) are being discussed behind closed doors. I understand that Boris was going to report back on that, following the proroguing period (for however long that lasts) ...
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

  12. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    H'm .. the only thing the EU has shown itself to be capable of is intransigence, coupled with an insistence that WE work with THEM, in an unequal so-called 'partnership'. If it were otherwise, we'd have seen them be a lot more open about renegotiation than they have been.

    Our own politicians are so power-drunk that they think they exercise power they don't have. Talk of 'not leaving without a deal' ... well, WHAT deal ? The EU has still only offered the one deal (the one they refuse to ratify), and the EU consider us to be at fault for not agreeing it.

    I really don't know what to say (as must be obvious ?) that's of any use. I don't believe that the EU will usefully bend to the reality of our position, and probably not at all. Boris's efforts, whatever they actually are, I doubt will come to anything. Yet, his opposition here insist he must 'get a deal' for us to leave, and they're backing that with legal mandate.

    I've no idea how this'll play out. Nobody does. Will Boris dig his heels in, and end up defying the law, by keeping to his promise to The People ? Or, will Parliament force him to renege on that ?

    Who knows.
    Again, from an outsider's view, it seems to me that the EU behaviors are the reason Brexit became a reality vote to leave? In a less, (hard to believe), desirable way it's actually worse than our federal government-takes more and gives much less of everything. At least we have a workable military.

    Seems it's better to leave without a plan, than to stay.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    Again, from an outsider's view, it seems to me that the EU behaviors are the reason Brexit became a reality vote to leave? In a less, (hard to believe), desirable way it's actually worse than our federal government-takes more and gives much less of everything. At least we have a workable military.

    Seems it's better to leave without a plan, than to stay.
    I agree .. better to leave minus a deal, than to accept either a shoddy deal, or to have our political maniacs insist we can only leave with a deal ... when no workable one is anywhere near, much less over, the horizon !

    Now, we have our LibDem Party which has just agreed to commit itself to end Brexit entirely, if it can ever get the electoral power to do so. Cries of 'This is undemocratic, ignoring the 2016 Referendum entirely' fall on deaf ears where they are concerned.

    Being tied into the EU means that we have open borders with every other EU country, smashing our hopes of properly controlling our own borders.

    Being tied to them means accommodating into our own laws every law passed in their Parliament, where we lack a law providing its equivalent ruling. We have a legal duty to comply.

    https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-law-and-uk/

    EU laws in areas for which the EU is responsible override any conflicting laws of member countries.

    Two important ideas make this system work. These are ‘supremacy’, meaning the higher status of EU laws compared to national laws, and ‘direct effect’, meaning that EU laws can be relied on in court.

    Both these constitutional principles were recognised decades ago in leading decisions of the EU court.

    The court said that they were necessary to ensure the survival of the EU legal system and to guarantee that EU rules are followed in all member countries.

    The supremacy of EU laws

    The principle of supremacy, or primacy, describes the relationship between EU law and national law.

    It says that EU law should prevail if it conflicts with national law.

    This ensures that EU rules are applied uniformly throughout the Union.

    If national laws could contradict the EU treaties or laws passed by the EU institutions, there wouldn’t be this single set of rules in all member countries.

    The UK has accepted the supremacy of EU law for some time.
    We're also subject to rulings passed by the appropriate European courts.

    We want our autonomy. That's the whole point of Brexit.
    Last edited by Drummond; 09-17-2019 at 06:58 PM.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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  15. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    You think I am privy to the negotiating contact Boris has with the EU ? These things (to whatever extent they are) are being discussed behind closed doors. I understand that Boris was going to report back on that, following the proroguing period (for however long that lasts) ...
    We know what the EU have offered, all of which the U.K. negotiators have rejected, so the EU seem to be happy to ‘lift the curtain’ on what they are offering ‘behind closed doors’. The U.K. on the other hand seem to of chosen instead to keep their proposals secret from the public.

    ...or at least they would if they existed - As Juncker has also been public is stating only the other day that the U.K. have not put a proposal to them.
    Last edited by Noir; 09-18-2019 at 03:22 AM.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    We know what the EU have offered, all of which the U.K. negotiators have rejected, so the EU seem to be happy to ‘lift the curtain’ on what they are offering ‘behind closed doors’. The U.K. on the other hand seem to of chosen instead to keep their proposals secret from the public.

    ...or at least they would if they existed - As Juncker has also been public is stating only the other day that the U.K. have not put a proposal to them.
    Then, enlighten us all, Noir. What exactly is it that the EU has generously offered, which we ungrateful and unappreciative UK persons have rejected ? How are WE being the 'obstructive' ones ??

    My belief, unless you claim otherwise: truthfully, you're simply referring to the one 'deal' the EU agreed with Mrs May and her team ... which Parliament found to be so dodgy as to feel it merited historically high levels of rejection !!

    We're currently (so far as we all know, right now) still stuck with that same 'deal' which the EU is forever hell-bent on shoving down our throats. Idiot Left-winger types in the UK (who were the ones principally rejecting that deal !) somehow idiotically believe that they can magically renegotiate it all, given much extra time, beyond the three years plus there's already been, to get this sorted out !

    But the EU has never said it would capitulate to even the minimal extent necessary to bring that about.

    So, enlighten us, Noir. What wondrous goodies are we spurning, from the EU's version of Father Christmas ? What am I overlooking ? Details, @Noir !!
    Last edited by Drummond; 09-18-2019 at 11:26 AM.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

  17. #103
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    There are endless details, news articles, opinion pieces and so on available about the EUs proposed backstop plans, which we can scrutinise (and reject!) becuase we know what they are.

    We have ZERO information on what the British proposal is, and those involved in the discussions from the EU have said Britain have not proposed any alternative to the backstop to them. That is concerning.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

  18. #104
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    The U.K. Supreme Court has ruled unanimously that the prorogation of Parliament by the Prime Minister was unlawful, and they certainly did not mince their words when giving the verdict.
    As of right now Parliament is no longer dissolved.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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  20. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    The U.K. Supreme Court has ruled unanimously that the prorogation of Parliament by the Prime Minister was unlawful, and they certainly did not mince their words when giving the verdict.
    As of right now Parliament is no longer dissolved.
    Thank you for that infor. Now what?


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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